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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU to think that straight people shouldn't be dictating who should be able to go to Pride?

173 replies

ArcheryAnnie · 03/06/2019 22:38

I'm a woman. I'm a mum. I'm also someone who has been an LGBT+ activist for most of her adult life. I used to go on Pride marches when it was a little bit scary to do so, when there was always a message at the end from the stage about being careful when you were going home and away from the safety of the gay-friendly crowd.

Susie Green, Mermaids CEO, is a straight woman. Which is fine! She is opposed to women declaring that lesbians don't have penises. Which is less fine, but eh, she's entitled to believe whatever daft things she wants. But - however many friends and relatives she has who fit under the LGBT+ banner - Pride isn't about her, or any other straight "allies".

And yet here she is, declaring that "We will only take part if we are satisfied that concerns have been addressed". This is because she is very keen to prevent lesbians who believe that lesbians don't have penises from participating in the Pride march.

Source: prideinlondon.org/news-and-views/a-pride-without-hate/

Susie, we don't give a shit whether you take part or not. We don't agree with you that women standing up for the validity of same-sex attraction, for female homosexuality, qualifies as "hate". We really don't care what you want to happen or don't want to happen at Pride. Pride was created by people like us, in times of great need, and you don't get to dictate what we will or won't do. This isn't for you.

AIBU to think Susie Green and others like her should stay in their lane?

OP posts:
Purplecatshopaholic · 03/06/2019 23:17

I dont get it. I dont care what you call yourself and who you love or dont love. I am happy to live and let live, if you are nice to me, I will be nice to you, I dont discriminate. But lets be clear, women dont have willies. Fact.

OwlBeThere · 03/06/2019 23:20

i'm sorry, i don't understand. isn't the whole point of pride supposed to be about acceptance and inclusivity for all? how is being trans 'at odds' with being LGB?

DonkeyHohtay · 03/06/2019 23:22

YANBU.

Have a lovely time at Pride.

sabeeena · 03/06/2019 23:22

YANBU.

I know so many lesbian women who are utterly sick and tired of this woman.

MorganKitten · 03/06/2019 23:22

@TurboTeddy
Marsha P. Johnson needs to be mentioned here too

OwlBeThere · 03/06/2019 23:22

@purplecatshopaholic....are you saying you don't believe in being trans? i feel utterly confused with this thread!

ILoveMaxiBondi · 03/06/2019 23:23

Storme DeLaverie

Yep. A lesbian.

ContessaIsOnADietDammit · 03/06/2019 23:23

Owl there are a number of trans people (mostly transwomen; i.e. biological males, with penises, who identify as female) who will describe themselves as lesbians and seek out 'other' lesbians (I.e. biological females) to have sex with. When the biologically female lesbians refuse (because vagina), they are berated for their 'obsessive' interest in genitals and for not allowing cock into their lives.

That is partly why they don't get on.

StoatofDisarray · 03/06/2019 23:24

YANBU

Purplecatshopaholic · 03/06/2019 23:27

I am for live and let live - totally. You make your gender choice and thats fine, no issues with that. I just would like people to be happy and too much pressure is not going to help people be happy

DonkeyHohtay · 03/06/2019 23:27

And partly because young gay men who don't conform to the stereotypically masculine gender roles, want to wear frills and make-up and who are attracted to other males are being told that they're not gay, they're transgender. Or vice versa .

A lot of the trans-rhetoric is very, very homophobic.

Supersimpkin · 03/06/2019 23:29

YANBU. No one gets to tell people at Pride who should and shouldn't be there. Least of all hets.

But you seem to be making up some stuff about that Mermaids woman, or at least you're not linking to it - she's also quoted in yr link as saying: 'To back out of Pride in London when they are showing that they are addressing these [transphobic] issues only bows to hate.'

Cheer up, transkids & co. will soon be out of fashion. Lesbians aren't going anywhere. Plenty of room for everyone at Pride - that's the point.

sabeeena · 03/06/2019 23:30

I am utterly confused between the issues of non-binary and transgender, surely, a man (with a penis) who identifies as a woman - is a man?

if they are transitioning that are MTF (and I would welcome them into our space).

If they are not transitioning and have no intention to... aren't they just a man with a penis taking up the space of women's space? and isn't this just being non-binary?

Sorry if I sound ignorant - I really don't mean to cause offense. I would just like someone to explain it clearly to me.

Bufferingkisses · 03/06/2019 23:31

The article you linked to doesn't match with your op. She is only asking that pride is a trans inclusive environment. Nothing wrong with that

No. The article is saying that lesbians who believe that lesbians don't have to agree to have sex with a penis don't belong at pride.

It's not trans-inclusive its lesbo-exclusive.

ContessaIsOnADietDammit · 03/06/2019 23:32

If they are not transitioning and have no intention to... aren't they just a man with a penis taking up the space of women's space?

That pretty much sums it up to my mind! Not sure they are non-binary though - IMO they are very very male....

donquixotedelamancha · 03/06/2019 23:32

isn't the whole point of pride supposed to be about acceptance and inclusivity for all?

Is it? If it is, should it be? Obviously, no one is going to argue against inclusivity and breaking down stereotypes generally, but there are good historical reasons why gay pride was needed as a focus for gay rights. It's perhaps not unreasonable that (while being inclusive and open to all) it maintains a focus on gay rights and the gay community.

I have to say that I find the idea of Lesbians being unable to march in pride due to their political views quite unpalatable. Not sure that's more inclusive.

HumberElla · 03/06/2019 23:35

YANBU

I don’t know how LGB people can stand it.

C8H10N4O2 · 03/06/2019 23:36

The "L" and the "B" always took second place in the Stonewall world but whereas in the early days there was a significant effort to balance that, currently it seems to be happier pushing "L" and "B" back into their place behind the hip and trendy.

sabeeena · 03/06/2019 23:36

My sister is a lesbian, and went through a mighty tough time in school because of it. I march with her proudly at Pride, because of the oppression she went through, and I am so proud of the woman she has become despite of it.

She was at a lesbian book meeting a few months ago, where there was non-binary men who identified as lesbian (I'm sorry if I haven't got that the wrong way round). So, they said they felt like women, but had penises.

Well my sister said to me "sabena, I can tell you why I am a lesbian and it's cus I like going down on a girl"

isnt sexual attraction about genitals?

Baffling.

Anyway, no hate here. I also respect the oppression of Transgender people, and I would stand proudly alongside them at Pride, but I feel like their cause is being hijacked unfortunately by the non-binary group, and this dampen downs the real struggles of trans people.

ReanimatedSGB · 03/06/2019 23:38

Uh, remember who started the original Stonewall riots? Trans women.

donquixotedelamancha · 03/06/2019 23:39

I am utterly confused between the issues of non-binary and transgender, surely, a man (with a penis) who identifies as a woman - is a man?

No. There is an ideology (based in the teachings of Judith Butler) which says that the act of 'identifying' as a member of the opposite sex makes you that sex in every sense. I think many (though certainly not all) adherents would acknowledge the existence of biological sex but would still say people should be treated as the sex they 'identify as' in all situations.

This is written into many aspects of public policy, for example in many swimming pools you choose whichever changing room you wish- regardless of appearance or biology.

GlomOfNit · 03/06/2019 23:41

Of course YANBU.

Pride seems to me to be run mostly as a big party with lots of fun glitter and streamers for young het kids under 25. Or at least that was the abiding impression I had this weekend (was in a large town at the same time as Pride). It seems almost entirely divorced from what it was, and should be. Not that it's for me to say what a movement promoting gay and bi pride and visibility should be. But nor is it for Susie Green to say.

donquixotedelamancha · 03/06/2019 23:42

isnt sexual attraction about genitals?

Adherents of Butlerism (such as Stonewall or Penny Mordaunt, minister for women) would say that this is bigoted and Lesbians should try to overcome such prejudice and accept women with penises.

For some reason having men get over their genital preferences seems a less important goal.

FithColumnist · 03/06/2019 23:44

i'm sorry, i don't understand. isn't the whole point of pride supposed to be about acceptance and inclusivity for all? how is being trans 'at odds' with being LGB?

No, it isn't. It's about asserting the rights of a specific long-oppressed community: lesbians, gays and bisexuals.

For all that revisionists like to assert that the Stonewall riots were led by trans individuals, this is yet another case of "retroactively identifying" a group of people who identified as drag queens rather than transwomen.

L, G and B all have one thing in common: they are defined by same-sex attraction. T, on the other hand, is defined by feeling that you're the wrong gender. The only reason why the four have been conflated is because they are all non-heteronormative. (BDSM is non-heteronormative. Urolagnia is non-heteronormative. Bestiality is non-heteronormative. These don't get as much traction it seems.) In LGBT discourse, it is the T that has over the past five or so years now been dominant, at the particular exclusion of the L.