AIBU to think that straight people shouldn't be dictating who should be able to go to Pride?

[ArcheryAnnie]

I'm a woman. I'm a mum. I'm also someone who has been an LGBT+ activist for most of her adult life. I used to go on Pride marches when it was a little bit scary to do so, when there was always a message at the end from the stage about being careful when you were going home and away from the safety of the gay-friendly crowd.

Susie Green, Mermaids CEO, is a straight woman. Which is fine! She is opposed to women declaring that lesbians don't have penises. Which is less fine, but eh, she's entitled to believe whatever daft things she wants. But - however many friends and relatives she has who fit under the LGBT+ banner - Pride isn't about her, or any other straight "allies".

And yet here she is, declaring that "We will only take part if we are satisfied that concerns have been addressed". This is because she is very keen to prevent lesbians who believe that lesbians don't have penises from participating in the Pride march.

Source: prideinlondon.org/news-and-views/a-pride-without-hate/

Susie, we don't give a shit whether you take part or not. We don't agree with you that women standing up for the validity of same-sex attraction, for female homosexuality, qualifies as "hate". We really don't care what you want to happen or don't want to happen at Pride. Pride was created by people like us, in times of great need, and you don't get to dictate what we will or won't do. This isn't for you.

AIBU to think Susie Green and others like her should stay in their lane?

Marsha P. Johnson needs to be mentioned here too

Which just goes to prove that lesbian erasure is a thing and one they are understandably concerned about.

(Although yeah, having a straight white woman telling LGB people what she considers "acceptable" is pretty damn galling. Get tae fuck woman.)

Right, ok, i can see that you should only sleep with who you want to sleep with, regardless of genitals. that should be a given. and anyone who goes against that is talking nonsense.
however, i equally don't don't think its fair to say that having a penis makes you a man. there will be plenty of trans people who are in the early part of transitioning who still have their birth genitals, or there will be those for whom surgery is expensive/impossible. should they then have to call themselves their birth sex forever because they can't have a surgery or haven't had it yet? i dont think so.
i know there seems to be a thing on mumsnet that all trans people are really men who want to invade females spaces, but i just don't think that is true of most.

YANBU. I have thought about going to pride to support lesbian friends, especially as so many have been getting grief from males at recent Pride events for their proud proclamation of their same sex attraction, which is what the event was originally about. Now the focus is cross dressing males who still fancy females and enjoy dominating them.
However as a straight woman I feel uncomfortable going as I feel it's not my parade.

Uh, remember who started the original Stonewall riots? Trans women.

Sorry but no it was a lesbian WOC.

What did I just read?

This Green woman is utterly batshit.

@OwlBeThere - they can have as much surgery as they wish but they'll never change sex because it is biologically impossible to do so. Whether they have 'bottom surgery' (and remember that only 15% of MTF do), they are still men.

They can identify as what they like but it doesn't change the biological reality.

L, G and B all have one thing in common: they are defined by same-sex attraction. T, on the other hand, is defined by feeling that you're the wrong gender. The only reason why the four have been conflated is because they are all non-heteronormative. (BDSM is non-heteronormative. Urolagnia is non-heteronormative. Bestiality is non-heteronormative. These don't get as much traction it seems.) In LGBT discourse, it is the T that has over the past five or so years now been dominant, at the particular exclusion of the L.

Honest to god there is a push to include K, for Kink, in the LGBT acronym now. Completely insulting.

As far as I can see, all of us from the cradle upwards are being told we're trans at the mo. Every kid in school is at risk of conscription as a child soldier of the Gender Wars.

Can't see the trend lasting - well, except for the medical and psychiatric effects on the unfortunate young subjects, which ain't pretty. Even if you maintain your trans identity into adulthood (v unlikely), you're fucked by 40 with drug side effects. The weird thing is that Susie Green never mentions this.

Adult transpeople I know are more wary than anyone of the dope pushed at you when you start to change. Even if the hormones work (not guaranteed) you end up riddled with arthritis, mental problems, osteoporosis, autoimmune diseases, you name it.

And as for the operations, well, no wonder some TW want to keep their dicks. Can't face the knife again after the endless breast surgeries, hair transplants, IPL, botox, you name it. Fair enough, obviously the most personal of choices.

I just don't think Susie Green matters - or should be allowed to matter - very much. She's not terribly truthful and seems to be a witch hunter of the squeakiest variety.

Pride is about more than silliness.

i know there seems to be a thing on mumsnet that all trans people are really men who want to invade females spaces, but i just don't think that is true of most.

You have not seen that as 'a thing' on MN in any way. If you have seen a particular post, report it and get the post pulled. You will have seen people discuss how making single sex spaces unisex, but still gendered, creates opportunities for predators- that is a very different discussion.

there will be plenty of trans people who are in the early part of transitioning who still have their birth genitals, or there will be those for whom surgery is expensive/impossible. should they then have to call themselves their birth sex forever because they can't have a surgery or haven't had it yet? i dont think so.

If you have read the discussion on this issue, you will know that there is a plethora of views but almost all of it is about the public policy implications of the movement towards self-ID and the impact of this on women's rights. No one gives a shit about policing how people dress and self describe.

i equally don't don't think its fair to say that having a penis makes you a man.

The ability to discuss biological reality is very important.

I am very very confused

"Susie Green, Mermaids CEO, is a straight woman. Which is fine! She is opposed to women declaring that lesbians don't have penises."

Isn't a lesbian with a penis a person of the male sex and therefore by definition not a lesbian?

If a male believes they are a lesbian then don't they need an operation to remove said penis ?

I equally don't don't think its fair to say that having a penis makes you a man.

Ye gods, what does it make you? Really bad at asking for directions?

YANBU.
Pride is so important.
The attempted erasure of lesbians' rights and feelings by these so called MTF people is outrageous.

However as a straight woman I feel uncomfortable going as I feel it's not my parade.

I can't speak for everyone but I'm happy for allies to show support in any way they can (as long as it's not blatantly self-congratulatory, but that's more of a general thing than pride attendance and probably doesn't apply to you!)

If a male believes they are a lesbian then don't they need an operation to remove said penis ?

Not according to the current prevailing discourse around trans people. In fact, there are a minority (at least I think it's a minority) that say you don't even need to experience gender dysphoria to be trans! Work that one out...

The ability to discuss biological reality is very important.

This is what it comes down to for me. I have no wish to demean or disrespect anyone, no matter who they are. But if we keep eroding the meanings of words, and ignore sex differences, or even argue that sex is a social construct (an actual argument that's been made in the past!) then we lose the ability to discuss and fight against sex-based oppression.

YANBU in the slightest.

YANBU

I hope that the lesbians march even bigger and bolder this year!

As a lesbian I am sadly too disenfranchised by the whole trans derailment from much bigger human issues

The definition of woman is not "man without a penis". How fucking insulting.

YANBU OP

@Barbarianmum I’m not sure if your post was in response to me, if so, I definitely didn’t say that. If not me then I’m sorry.

@Freckledleopard, I suppose that is the difference between us as I pretty much think the whole ‘you can’t be a REAL man/woman’ thing is incredibly petty and mean. I’m not saying there aren’t issues within the trans-community but for those who strongly feel they are in the wrong body and do what makes them feel happier within themselves to then split hairs about it just feels cruel to me.
I’ve read the debates here a bit, and it just seems to me that people seem unwilling and/or unable to see each trans person as an individual. There may be some who are predators ‘in disguise’ but that doesn’t mean that is true of all or even most. And the whole discussion seems to want to ignore the fact FTM trans people exist too. From a personal POV, the 4 openly trans people I know are all FTM.
The prevalence of Trans issues to the detriment of Lesbian issues is unfair, but I’m not sure that can be blamed entirely on trans people? We all of us want our own unique voice heard, that’s just human nature. In the same way I’m passionate about verbal dyspraxia awareness or awareness of kidney cancer as they are relevant to me but they are much less well known about than dyslexia or breast cancer. That’s not the fault of breast cancer suffers or dyslexics is it?
I’m all for open discussion and I absolutely do not think it’s ok to exclude any part of the LGBT community from pride just on the say so of another sector (or a straight woman) but I equally don’t think it’s ok to exclude and insinuate things about ALL trans people.

Uh, remember who started the original Stonewall riots? Trans women

Absolute bollocks. It was started by Storme DeLarverie who was a black, butch lesbian. Also, Marsha Johnson admitted that he only turned up after it had all kicked off.

Totally agree with you OP re Susie Green. She needs to wind her neck in and stop co-opting the LGBT community to suit her own messed up agenda.

I've never understood why the T element was morphed with LGB, I've always thought if I was gay I wouldn't understand or want the lumping in of trans with homosexuality, clouding the needs and rights of gay people, what on Earth is the link?? It just tarnishes it.