If you're female AIBU to ask if you're ok with male health professionals at all times and in any scenario?

[DockerDre]

It's just that question really.

Yes. I would accept a male professional regardless of what the issue was. I’m just extremely glad we have the NHS.

For all those who feel a male dr has behaved inappropriately may I ask whether you complained and if not why not? For as long as patients remain passive there will not be improvements. no this isn’t true. There can be improvements without victims leading change. Blaming victims of assault for this is very wrong, shameful and unkind.

Some? Do a google on the subject - tons of hits and most of them have lots of victims

I used some because while I know there are still way too many victims, I'm not entirely sure or up to date of the statistics/incidents on it.

Tbh...even one is one too many in any circumstance,but especially this one.

@Graphista - I don't think men and women have identical experiences. I don't think that's what I mean with "I would like the baseline to be gender neutral". I think human beings have massively varied experiences but I think we do all of us a massive disservice if we take that to mean we should 'stay in our lanes'. Human beings are almost infinite in their variety and the different things which shape us - sex, gender, race, religion, disability, mental health, poverty, wealth, culture, nationality, sexuality, - loads of things and all are as valid as each other, and also shape us in different ways. That's why I think for big wide ranging things like "who can do what job" we should start out at a neutral place of "humans do human jobs" with any variation on a personal and individual level. So, not "any male midwife is weird because delivering babies is women's work" but "anyone can do any job and some individuals may have individual needs".

“So, not "any male midwife is weird because delivering babies is women's work" but "anyone can do any job and some individuals may have individual needs".”

I’m uneasy about this- but mostly because i’m riding two horses. Somehow we have to get to a situation where any job is open to anyone, but it’s OK for a patient to say “I only want someone if the same sex touching me” without being considered bigoted or fragile or snowflaky. I don’t know how we square that circle, but to me it feels incredibly important that we do.

@BertrandRussell - why is a shared XX chromosome so much more important than race/religion/culture/sexuality/economic status/disability/mental health/reproductive status ?

I presume you don't think that psychiatrists should all have a diagnosed MH condition or that social workers should only practice within their own cultural and/or religious community. What makes that different?

(Apologies if I am misunderstanding you entirely)

I 100% want a female HCP for anything intimate to do with my female body, and I 100% do not want to explain the reasons or justify that to anyone

“I presume you don't think that psychiatrists should all have a diagnosed MH condition or that social workers should only practice within their own cultural and/or religious community. What makes that different?“
I can’t answer that question because I can’t begin to see how it’s remotely the same thing!

batvixen123 - that's a new level of "let's make women feel silly if they feel uneasy in any way about who rummages in their innards". Or a new level of crazy, not sure which. Mocking and belittling to make sure everyone falls into line, the line you think appropriate.

@BertrandRussell - well, those are other aspects of identity which I think hugely affect people and where a lack of shared experiences makes a difference. My argument has always been that many different things make people different but we don't use that as a reason to segregate as a society - we say anyone can do any job but different people may have different needs.

You seem to be arguing that this isn't the case for sex - that we should focus on the difference and in that one specific area make segregation the norm. I don't understand why.

batvixen the difference between men and women is not just chromosomes. I wrote a long post at about 8.30am yesterday which explained why there is a significant difference and why sex segregation is so important sometimes.

@Outanabout - I think the fact that you find my point so laughable and you take as 'mocking and belittling' actually sums up one of my core issues with this discussion and why I find some of these conversations so galling.

Apparently it is risible to even suggest that people like my grandmother who's social worker was incredibly unhelpful about her asking about kosher meals on wheels might have actual needs that she feels were not met by someone who did not understand why these things mattered. Apparently it's laughable to imagine that constantly having to explain your issues to someone who has never experienced anything similar might be difficult.

Because the only difference that matters is whether we all have a mystic vagina and have shared the magic of menstruation. All other differences should be sucked up by everyone. I've said repeatedly that anyone should be able to request different personal care for any reason. I just don't think the baseline is sex segregation because I don't think any segregation is a decent place to start from.

CaptainBrickbeard - I'm using chromasomes as a shorthand as the only difference that seems to be consistent for all.

I don’t think I am saying I want sex segregation to be the norm in society. I am saying that there are circumstances where women often feel the need for privacy and to be away from “the male gaze” - and have traditionally in many societies had that need met- and it seems to me to be a retrograde step to paint that need as somehow anomalous. Women are often told to suppress or deny their feelings for the benefit of orhers. I think there is a danger of this happening here.

Anyway, I'm now being ranty and shouty, and I think not making myself clear at all and that isn't going to change anyone's mind so I'll now step back. Apologies for getting angry.

The difference is that men pose a significant danger to women. Sexual abuse, assault, exploitation, harassment, voyeurism, pornography etc etc etc is overwhelmingly perpetrated by men against women. Not all men, yeah I know. But listen to the news for two minutes every day and you will hear of crimes committed by men against women. Look at the Me Too hashtag. Men grope, catcall, intimidate, attack and rape women and girls day in and day out. All caveats apply about not all men, I have sons, I have a husband, I don’t hate men or live in constant fear etc. But when it comes to intimate and vulnerable situations, sex segregation should absolutely be the baseline to protect the dignity and privacy of girls and women.

Well obviously your grandmother should have been listened to about kosher meals. But your seem to be arguing the exact opposite. You seem to be saying that she should have just accepted non-kosher in the interests of not segregating people.

I am saying that there are circumstances where women often feel the need for privacy and to be away from “the male gaze” -

Surely this should say "some women"? Why do you presume to know how all women feel?

If I have the choice I would prefer to see a male HCP over a female HCP who assumes that they know exactly how I feel just because we share the same sex.

That's the problem with saying that a female HCP has a level of understanding because they have periods, have been pregnant, given birth etc - no, they know what it felt like for them, they don't know what it feels like for me and I have had examples where my problems are seen as not being that bad because for them it hasn't been that bad. Whereas for me, it is.

But when it comes to intimate and vulnerable situations, sex segregation should absolutely be the baseline to protect the dignity and privacy of girls and women.

No, it shouldn't be the baseline, not when it comes to health care at least. We should be able to choose the sex of our HCPs, we shouldn't be forced to have a same sex hcp.

batvixen123 yeah you may be making a good point but I'm not sure that you're not just muddying the waters to obscure the point women are making. Unfortunately so many goady fuckers flock to any thread about women's boundaries that it becomes difficult to know what's being posted in good faith, and what to be disruptive. This thread isn't about kosher or halal, it's about feeling safe.

“That's the problem with saying that a female HCP has a level of understanding because they have periods, have been pregnant, given birth etc - ”

I don’t say that. So that’s good, isn’t it?

I don’t say that. So that’s good, isn’t it?

I didn't say that you said it, but it has definitely been said on this thread.

OK. So how about a situation where the expectation is that a HCP providing intimate care should be the same sex as the patient and anyone who wants the other sex can ask for that?

I thought I was totally ok with male or female, but now not gynae issues, not out of embarrassment, I’d still have a smear or something by a male, but I feel I need a woman to “understand” what I’m talking about, I felt the male doctor just dismissed what I was saying and didn’t understand

I am, yes, but I havent had any of the traumatic experiences that might make me feel safer/less triggered with physical contact with women.