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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

If you're female AIBU to ask if you're ok with male health professionals at all times and in any scenario?

999 replies

DockerDre · 31/05/2019 19:03

It's just that question really.

OP posts:
Surfingtheweb · 01/06/2019 19:02

Anything gynaecology I've always found men to be far more gentle then women. So I'd say yes. But I'm almost 40, I would have preferred women when I was younger & didn't know how brutal they are 😂

BertrandRussell · 01/06/2019 19:14

“NHS is clear that a patient has the right to reject an offer of having a chaperone.”

Oh well- if that’s the case, I retract and repent my brief and uncharacteristic what about the men moment. Phew.

Blistory · 01/06/2019 19:15

Male HCPs would lessen their risk from accusations or misunderstandings if they took the time and effort to explain what they were doing, why they were doing it and to reiterate that consent was necessary before they could proceed.

There are plenty of women on this thread who have spoken about being uncomfortable because they were taken unawares. HCPs of any sex shouldn't assume that the patient knows what every examination will entail. Women shouldn't have to tolerate simply because men won't take the time and effort to ensure informed consent has been given. The notion of implied consent to examination is one that healthcare should have moved on.

Blistory · 01/06/2019 19:17

You can't retract it, it's been captured for posterity and because people wouldn't believe it otherwise. Smile

DecomposingComposers · 01/06/2019 19:44

Don't be pedantic. The vast majority of female doctors/HCAs will have experienced pregnancy and childbirth, periods, or the menopause. Maybe not all of those things, but certainly at least one of them!

In addition, like many women, many female doctors/HCAs will have experienced cystitis, thrush, miscarriage, breast screening, breast cancer, cervical cancer, hysterectomy, HRT, birth injuries, polycystic ovary syndrome, endometriosis, abortion, cervical smears, or uterine fibroids.

Really? I qualified in 1991. I have experienced hardly any of those things on your list. I doubt that the majority of female HCPs have experienced most of them either. And that isn't being pedantic.

I don't expect my cardiologist to have had a heart attack or my neurologist to have had a stroke in order to be able to treat me.

batvixen123 · 01/06/2019 19:47

I'm going to now demand I only see a psychiatrist who has experienced the same MH problems as me!

whatscuterthanasleepingbaby · 01/06/2019 19:49

I wouldn’t care but I did that post baby check thing with a male doctor and he seemed so uncomfortable with discussions of breast feeding and c section scars. Even was unnerved by DS who was angelic and sitting nicely in his car seat, but doc kept saying “errr he’s starring at me”.
I showed him my piles regardless but it made me think in future I’d prefer a female, took all my courage to bring up everything I was concerned about given his demeanour. FYI he was in his 60s so not some wet behind the ears type.

DecomposingComposers · 01/06/2019 19:55

I'm going to now demand I only see a psychiatrist who has experienced the same MH problems as me!

Exactly because they could not possibly be able to treat you correctly without personal first hand experience.

We all should be able to request an HCP of a specific sex though whether that would delay treatment I don't know.

I had an echocardiogram a few weeks ago - female cardiologist and female technician doing the scan except there were problems during the scan and the technician couldn't get the pictures that she needed so had to get someone else in to do it - who was male. I'm not sure what would have happened had I refused.

Likewise just had 2 colonoscopies - I had no idea the sex of the personnel who would be present until I was wheeled into the room.

Maybe you would need to make your wishes clear before the appointment so that they could arrange the staff appropriately?

batvixen123 · 01/06/2019 20:10

I honestly think we should be able to request a different HCP for almost any reason, and all are as valid as each other. I have requested a different CPN before because I didn't feel comfortable with my old (female) one. I was asked if I'd be ok with a man, I was and got the most amazing bloke who helped me until I was well enough to be discharged back into the community. He absolutely saved my life. In many ways I think psych treatment can be more intimate than gynaecological stuff (obvs YMMV) and I never felt that because he's not had a baby before he wouldn't be able to understand why I felt the way I did when perinatal psychosis was kicking my ass.

I also asked to change health visitor after I had one who made a couple of shitty comments about my MH and how she'd be "keeping a close eye" and made a weird throwaway comment about my religion/ethnicity. If you're not comfortable with your HCP for absolutely any reason then you should never have to work with them, or justify yourself.

Pgqio · 01/06/2019 20:15

Not rtft but have only had positive experiences with male doctors and nurses, less so with females so very happy to be examined and treated by men.

Herefortheduration · 01/06/2019 20:16

Yes, I'd be fine with a man in all instances, I'm more interested in having someone who can help me, rather than what's in their pants.

fairweathercyclist · 01/06/2019 20:17

I used to request a female GP because there was a really nice locum at my surgery. But that was in the days when you could get an appointment the same week. My GP doesn't use locums anymore.

Otherwise I don't care, although I think I would probably be a bit taken aback by a male midwife. That said, a male consultant delivered my son.

fairweathercyclist · 01/06/2019 20:21

On the chaperone point, a few years ago I went to see my male GP and he needed to do an intimate examination and asked me if I wanted a chaperone. I said yes, and he said I was only about the 3rd lady ever to have wanted one. I said I was surprised HE didn't want one to avoid false accusations of wrongdoing. But he made me feel a bit daft.

mathanxiety · 01/06/2019 20:21

Agree with Decomposing here.

Strongly felt gendered expectations of more empathy and even more considerate physical care are a real surprise to me.

There was a time when 'women doctors' were widely considered to be inferior to 'doctors'. This was a gendered expectation too.

AlphaJura · 01/06/2019 20:24

I don't care whether they're male or female for what procedure as long as they know what they are doing. I've seen good and bad hcp of both sexes. My friend had a female doctor who made some quite inappropriate comments whilst doing an intimate examination, so just because they're the same sex, doesn't always mean they'll be professional. I have found male gps a bit clueless about breastfeeding, had one for my 6 wk check up and was concerned I had thrush. He examined my breasts and called a chaperone in (which I found odd because normally they ask if you want one). It made me feel more uncomfortable having another person stood there staring at me and it also made me think he thought I'd be uncomfortable with him doing it or that I'd report him or something. He concluded I didn't have it and then told me to ask my health visitor (I did have it). But in general I'll accept an appointment with anyone, the sooner the better.

kikibo · 01/06/2019 20:36

After a female doctor wanting to do at least an internal, if not including speculum and all, barely 3 days after birth (I kid you not) to 'check my cervix ' (cervixes don't need to be checked at that stage, thank you) and a female paediatrician whose bedside manner was less than indifferent, I have decided to stay with men. All male doctors I have met have been caring, empathetic and careful. Female ones have been disinterested, rude and 'alpha women' needing to prove themselves I guess. Not with me in the room then.

As to chaperones: I find it uncomfortable enough to be examined in private areas at all, so I'll pass for a spectator. I think the key here is trust and unless you can't choose who will treat you (as in emergencies), I think chaperones could be dispensed with. It's a system thing. Eliminate the 'any HCP, any patient' model and let people choose who they want and you will no longer need chaperones. People soon talk about HCPs who are dodgy.

YourSarcasmIsDripping · 01/06/2019 20:41

I think women requesting female HCP because they're more likely to have similar experiences (of the female body) comes from a place of wanting to feel comfortable,maybe have a "connection ", preserving their dignity etc. ,and that's ok.

Tbh whichever the reason a woman should have the right to request a female HCP. Having issues with your health is shitty enough without having to worry about coping with something you're uncomfortable with just to be all progressive and what not.

The reasons sometimes might seem sexist or outdated or whatever , that doesn't mean a woman's comfort,safety and dignity has to suffer for it.

scubaprincess · 01/06/2019 21:05

I have had mainly male HCPs for all sorts of intimate exams-ivf (x2) c-section (x2) and a laparoscopy, and don't have a problem as long as they're clearly knowledgeable and put you at ease. After all that I don't really care who sees what! I think the being put at ease thing is most important-when I was 18 I saw a doc about something mundane and he started going on about cervical cancer and how you can also get it in your lips so would I like one there and then? I politely declined as there was something really odd and uncomfortable about the conversation.

HouseName · 01/06/2019 21:05

Female doctors only for me.

MindfulBear · 01/06/2019 21:44

It depends on the situation tbh. Mostly I'm fine with a male HCP and some of the women Drs I know have the worst bedside manner!
However I've had a dr request a chaperone before - I was gobsmacked but in hindsight it was sensible as he wasn't very old and I was in my early 20s.

HiJuice · 01/06/2019 22:31

In theory prefer women HCPs, but the only time I've felt really uncomfortable was with a female ultrasonographer who also called in a chaperone. The chaperone (an older woman) was very hands on and kept pushing my legs open. I was calm and cooperative so there was no need. I would have preferred her to keep her distance. Another time when a male hcp called in a chaperone it was strange to have someone watching the procedure. I understand the need for chaperones but they don't make me feel safer or more at ease.
I wouldn't generally request a woman though - it's more down to the personality or manner of the person in question. After the ultrasound experience I felt a bit violated - next time I think I'd ask the chaperone to sit a reasonable distance away. The problem is though, you often feel too awkward and it's only afterwards you realise it would have been fine to politely request things done differently.

Graphista · 01/06/2019 23:43

"There seems to be an underlying assumption that no female HCPs are sexually interested in women. Some HCPs are bi/ lesbian."

I'm bisexual myself I make no such assumptions.

But I've NEVER been harassed or assaulted by a woman.

It's also not just about the potential for mistreatment due to sexual interest.

My experience has been male hcps arrogantly assuming/declaring that certain examinations/procedures won't hurt/cause problems simply because a lot of women (without the same medical history as me!) are fine with them, not all women are the same, not all women's bodies are the same. Being too rough/abrupt in their manner and basically just not understanding how sensitive certain parts of my body are.

"The lesbian/ sexual interest point is, as pointed out earlier, showing the posters own bigotry." Totally agree

"Mansplaining only gets ridiculed by mansplainers, mansplaining that it couldn't, possibly, happen." So true.

"I do wonder why people are averse to male midwives, when a large percentage of obstetricians are male. Men deliver babies all the time, how is it ok if they're a Dr, but less ok if they're a midwife?" Personally I'd like there to be far more female obs too. It seems a really odd choice of profession for a man.

"Genitals are not the only difference between men and women." Exactly. Men don't have the experience of being constantly subjected to sexism, harassment and at risk of assault, they don't understand that feeling of vulnerability.

Overall captainbrickbeard excellent post at 0828

Quite a few people saying "if possible" "if available" "where staffing allows" in certain areas of medicine (gynaecology, obstetrics, sexual health, breast cancer care) I would say more needs to be done to encourage women into these specialisms in order to be able to provide women hcps for those patients desiring this.

I wonder if there's as many women hcps in male specialised areas of medicine as there are men in women specialised areas? Perhaps currently working hcps might have an idea?

Graphista · 01/06/2019 23:43

"For all those who feel a male dr has behaved inappropriately may I ask whether you complained and if not why not? For as long as patients remain passive there will not be improvements." Please don't blame victims for predators and criminals not improving their behaviour! It's hard enough getting sexual assault believed and treated appropriately generally, it's even harder when the accused is a very well educated, professional of long standing and considered a "pillar of the community" plus any complaints about GP's are very hard to pursue and can often result in patients being left without a primary care registration.

I agree though that female hcps also need to be sensitive to patients need for privacy when dressing/undressing etc.

Also all hcps need to not be asking if students/trainees can be involved WITH the student/trainee present! That puts the patient in a ridiculously awkward position of feeling like they could be personally offending/insulting them - it's not obtaining true consent from the patient in my opinion.

My last cpn did this to me and I did make a complaint but it shouldn't have happened in the first place - and that was in my home too! Just literally turned up at my door with "you don't mind if this student joins us do you?" And didn't even wait for an answer! Generally I don't mind students being involved but on this particular occasion there was something I wanted to discuss with her that was quite embarrassing and it meant I delayed raising it until the next session which caused me some distress.

So any currently practicing hcps reading can you please take that on board and possibly even feed back to those in a position to effect change on this score?

"I was repeatedly sexually abused by a woman as a young child. Society makes no accommodations for my trauma, and has never done so."

@LailaDay I'm so very sorry that happened to you. You absolutely should have it taken into account whenever you need it to be.

"All of those comments either outright say or imply that women should not be given a choice." 100% agree

@captainbrickbeard another excellent post at 12:00

DoreenWinkings and others posting similar. I too have had really bad hcps mainly GP's which I've refused to see for various reasons, I have no problem doing so, but funnily enough one of these (appalling "bedside manner" very much "angry man" and very abrupt and quite dismissive) came through brilliantly for dd precisely because of his "take no prisoners" attitude. Dd was very ill and hospital were messing us about trying to deter an admission which WAS needed (they hadn't even seen her at this point!) he basically lifted the phone gave them a bollocking insisted on being put through to the head of the dept, explained the situation and that dd needed to be admitted ASAP and got us the admission we needed. When we arrived at the hospital lead consultant saw us immediately gave the person who'd initially refused the admission another bollocking admitted and immediately began treating dd who was in significant pain and distress. GP I later learned raised a formal complaint regarding what happened initially which was upheld. Sometimes it's good to have assholes on your side. We were very grateful for his help and support that day, still wouldn't see him for anything potentially involving a physical exam as he's just too rough nor when I'm feeling fragile mentally as I say he can be quite brusque/abrupt and isn't patient/understanding on the mh side of things. Peoples skills (areas and quality) vary.

Another female GP I wasn't a fan of as she was quite "head in the clouds" and tended towards "wait and see" with physical ailments - where I tend not to go the GP for physical ailments unless absolutely necessary, I'm pretty good at self dx/treating minor ailments. Or even not so minor but frequent ones for me that I know how to deal with. But when I had a reaction to antidepressant meds which caused near psychosis she was bloody brilliant! Realised what had occurred very quickly, gave me meds to counteract and got straight onto mh team who had been telling me I'd need to wait at least 6 weeks when I was hanging on by my fingernails and in charge of a young dd with little to no support network, and said to them "no she NEEDS to be seen this week, preferably tomorrow" again once psychiatrist saw me they realised she was right and I got the treatment and support I needed.

So I'm well aware there's good and bad GP's & hcps of both sexes and sometimes it's a case of a situation/ailment falling within their skill set.

But I maintain that patients of both sexes need to be treated with respect, privacy and sensitivity regarding preferences of sex of their hcps.

As several pps have eloquently put the right to choose who touches us or sees our intimate areas is a fundamental human right and should be supported wherever possible.

Graphista · 01/06/2019 23:44

Batvixen I disagree with your post at 1314 in several ways. Men and women are NOT the same, we live in a fundamentally unbalanced world plus biological differences affect several social differences.

Equality is not everyone being treated exactly the same. Logic has to be applied. Men are biologically physically stronger generally speaking which makes certain tasks easier for them, that's undeniable. It depends on the examples considered. I personally think that there's no reason why women can't serve on the frontline now because technology advances means that physical strength is no longer much of a factor here. Both sexes are cognitively capable of understanding the same concepts and ideas in the world generally.

But there are some areas of life that only the members of whichever sex can understand on a deep level. A woman can never really understand what it feels like to literally be kicked in the balls, we can sympathise with it being painful and distressing and embarrassing but we can never know how it feels. A man can never really understand how it feels to have a period or give birth or be thumped in the tits. Again they can sympathise with the distress or pain they witness but they cannot know how it actually feels.

They also cannot understand how it feels to live in a world where their sex disadvantages them in almost every arena, where they're constantly having to defend and argue for this not to be the case. They can sympathise and be supportive of women addressing that but they don't live it.

"Another thing I’m concerned about is the fact that women need to explain themselves when it comes to things like this." That's gradually improving. I remember sometimes being asked why in the past but in recent years either GP surgery or local hospital and they haven't they've just accepted and made arrangements

I'm an ex nurse myself, been almost 15 years since I last practiced but certainly my experience differs from decomposing's as male patients then in the places I worked if they requested a male hcp that was facilitated where possible. Was a bit more difficult in the nursing homes I worked in as it does tend to be mainly if not exclusively women carers in them, very hard to recruit male hcps in those roles.

"I've also a friend who used to work in a care home for the elderly. She said the men would get erections while she was washing them. Eugh." This is an involuntary physiological response and isn't necessarily related to sexual attraction to the person caring for them. Often patient are embarrassed by this.

It's a mistake to assume any poster is male or female. I've seen excellent posts supportive of women's rights by posters who either on the thread or I've seen them elsewhere post that they're male and I've seen appallingly misogynistic posts by posters who claim to be female. The truth is

A you don't know posters are being truthful about their sex (I certainly have my suspicions about a few)

B even if they are, men can be allies on women's rights and women can be raging misogynists - I've seen this in real life as well as online where I don't know people's sex for definite.

However, I do think posting on threads in such a way as to not contribute to the discussion just criticise the mere existence of the discussion or how it's been framed. It's mansplaining bollocks and doesn't further any debate so it's pointless.

But yes I do think the reasons for men responding on a thread like this tend usually to at best misguided and at worst deliberately intended to derail/hijack the discussion, certain types of men cannot bear us having discussions that are in any way particular to the experience of being a woman or could at all be perceived as being critical of even some men!

"For something mental health I prefer a senior as opposed to a locum regardless of sex." Absolutely your choice but you seem to misunderstand what a locum is. They're not necessarily less qualified/experienced locum simply means temporarily employed. Drs choose to be locums for lots of reasons. Personally I've had better experiences with locums than GP's mainly because they don't base treatment decisions on the financial considerations (incentives and disincentives, bonuses) that are in place in how GP surgeries are run whereas permanent GP's are usually partners in the surgery (they're essentially run as private companies who subcontract to the Nhs) or at least their employment is dependent on them following rules within their practice based on these factors and others.

"there are still some that have taken advantage of their position and would still try to do so." Some? Do a google on the subject - tons of hits and most of them have lots of victims

YourSarcasmisDripping I'm sorry that happened to you, absolutely not appropriate or necessary I would say that constitutes an assault.

"I honestly think we should be able to request a different HCP for almost any reason, and all are as valid as each other." Excellently put.

LimeKiwi · 01/06/2019 23:55

I honestly think we should be able to request a different HCP for almost any reason , and all are as valid as each other.

I agree.