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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not feel happy with gender neutral toilets at work?

778 replies

BalletBunting · 30/05/2019 13:01

My company has recently relabelled all toilets on my floor as 'gender neutral'. As well as being rather confused as to what the need is for them (there are no trans people at my work as far as I'm aware) I don't like them, and I would prefer to keep the ladies loo as is. The nearest women's toilets is 3 floors up now!

I don't really feel comfortable going to the loo knowing that there are men in there but I don't really know how to bring this up and with who. I work for a large media company, fairly young/progressive and I don't want to cause trouble for myself.

There was also absolutely no consultation regarding the change. If anyone has been in a similar situation and managed to come to a different solution? Or AIBU and should drop it?

OP posts:
Prawnofthepatriarchy · 01/06/2019 12:48

You're on fire, TalkingintheDark. That's the second of two amazing posts you've added to this thread since yesterday.

NKFell · 01/06/2019 13:12

fiddlesticks the point is that you can’t identify out of race or gender and being a blank woman there have been times when I know I’m being talked down or overlooked but I’m not sure if it’s because I’m a woman or because I’m black.

GreytExpectations · 01/06/2019 14:29

Once again, those accusing me of putting men above women, I never said or insinuated that, nor did i say we should put trans people above women. I actually have always been saying everyone should be equal. If you also bothered to read my previous posts you would also see that i said I personally dont think the mixed toilets are a great idea and even mentioned the risk of sexual assault but you just keep making assumptions about what you think i said instead of reading what i actually have said.

GreytExpectations · 01/06/2019 14:40

For those who wont believe me or cant be bothered to rtft on page 10 at 17:56 yesterday i said this in response to whether i thought mixed toilets were a good idea:

Honestly, im not too bothered either way but i wouldnt say its a good idea. I just disagree with a lot of what is being said on here.

My stance has not changed, I have just been honest about the fact that I support equality. That means everyone is equal not one above the other.

Plinney · 01/06/2019 14:42

I honestly do not get all this transgendered lobbying bx. Its just insanity as far as I'm concerned.

REGARDLESS, I do not want to go to a mixed toilet where men are. That some people are presenting this as a progressive thing and its being accepted, shows how messed up everyone's head is.

Plinney · 01/06/2019 14:43

The word 'equality' being used in this context is just a load of bx too, one of those words to make it 'sound' good. Give me strength.

GreytExpectations · 01/06/2019 14:49

Plinney

We just have different views because I'm not prejudiced against ANY group of people unlike the majority on this thread, which is why i'm getting attacked with incorrect accusations.

Helmetbymidnight · 01/06/2019 14:50

It's not about good or bad idea it's about not being a fucking major issue

this

ok so now its abad idea? cool. Hmm

OldCrone · 01/06/2019 15:01

What prejudice have you seen on this thread, GreytExpectations? Wanting to keep toilets single sex isn't 'prejudice' against men (or women), it's actually what most people want.

1moremum · 01/06/2019 15:10

"OP, you say "flimsy" but why does that matter- what exactly are you worried will happen?"
She probably means that you will be able to hear what is going in in the cubicle next door. I think it would change the dynamic between me and a boss or subordinate if we were to hear each other farting. I wouldn't be comfortable with it.

so what do you do about hearing farts or pooping noises from women who are your superior or your subordinate?

Ereshkigal · 01/06/2019 15:10

My stance has not changed, I have just been honest about the fact that I support equality. That means everyone is equal not one above the other.

You cant support transactivists getting whatever they want, and female rights. The two things are mutually exclusive.

Ereshkigal · 01/06/2019 15:11

#idontseecolour #alllivesmatter

Any problems with these statements?

Mummyoflittledragon · 01/06/2019 15:56

Gosh the information on the NHS website is shocking and pathetic. Shock

Greyt
Ereshkigal has it. The two are mutually exclusive. I want life to be fluffy, pain free and full of flowers and love. But it isn’t. Life is gritty. Humans are egotistical, self absorbed and the preferential treatment men receive is pretty ubiquitous.

We have to face reality, not ideals. Only then can we work toward the ideal. Anyone pretending everyone is equal is supporting a facade, which allows those weaker to continue to be marginalised and abused. We can pretend we have transcended to some higher plane. But this could not be further from the truth. To me it seems the further along this road we go, the more sick our society is becoming. In essence we are just animals with a highly developed forebrain.

TalkingintheDark
Thanks. Smile. Another excellent post upthread.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 01/06/2019 16:38

Reading back over the thread, GreytExpectations, it seems you haven't addressed the issue of competing rights.

Again and again you talk about equality and caring about everyone's feelings. However you really don't seem to get that sometimes what one group demands is incompatible with the rights of another.

If men who identify as women say it's their right to access the women's changing room this disbars women from a range of minorities who cannot disrobe in the presence of a man other than their husband. By granting the demands of one group you strip the others of their rights.

And the protected characteristics under the Equality Act are age, disability, gender reassignment, marriage and civil partnership, pregnancy and maternity, race, religion or belief, sex, and sexual orientation.

In the situation I describe the women are being affected on the grounds of sex, religion and belief. That's not acceptable. Gender reassignment is not gender identity.

This exact situation is currently the case with the women's pond at Hampstead. There's talk of a legal challenge to the decision to allow men who identify as women to use the women's pool.

Can you not see that in many cases what's being demanded by TRAs damages the interests of women (and men too, though to a lesser extent)?

Things like misgendering and deadnaming are far too big of an ask. Those insisting we observe this are demanding control over how they are perceived, in a way others do not. It's unreasonable and authoritarian.

It can be impossible to be sure what gender a stranger believes themselves to be and most people don't much care. Besides which, we mostly use third person pronouns in the absence of the person. Misgendering is actually correctly sexing - human beings, well all animals - are really good at discerning the sex of a stranger at a glance. Trying to shame someone for correctly sexing you is dreadful.

As for deadnaming, it hardly seems worth kicking up a fuss about, particularly on a forum where so many millions of us have changed or altered their name.

But of course some people have very strong motives to conceal their past. There have already been cases of sex and violent offenders who have tried - and in some cases succeeded - in concealing their criminal past by transition and a new feminine name. Cries of deadnaming now bring out the Miss Marple in me.

Ereshkigal · 01/06/2019 18:36

I was reading just today in Feminist Current about how TRAs are pushing for changes in some state laws which prohibit people who have committed certain crimes like violent crimes and sexual offences changing name, or monitor those who do.

Ereshkigal · 01/06/2019 18:37

I have absolutely no idea whatsoever why such laws would possibly exist. It's a mystery.

MenstruatorExtraordinaire · 02/06/2019 09:54

t.co/7uVh0lOSPZ?amp=1

Thread here on Twitter about the perils of mixed sex toilets.

TalkingintheDark · 02/06/2019 10:40

Great link Menstruator. And yes, why indeed would such laws exist, Ereshkigal? 🤔

Thank you btw Menstruator, Prawn and Mummyof. I’m loving all your posts on this thread too, and those of SpartacusAutisticus and of course Ereshkigal.

So, Greyt, if you agree that mixed sex toilets are a bad idea, what are we arguing about? Perhaps it’s your definition of mixed sex (although tbf, seeing as you haven’t directly answered my direct questions, it’s hard to tell).

So one more time. Do you or do you not agree that people of the female sex (that’s people who are biologically female, for extra clarity), being a disadvantaged group, which is recognised in law by the fact that sex is a protected characteristic in the Equalites Act, and being also physically vulnerable relative to those of the male sex, should be entitled to have, where we wish, genuinely single sex services and spaces, which naturally and reasonably exclude ALL those of the biologically male sex, no matter how they identify or present, for reasons of safety, dignity, fairness and redressing the historic power imbalance between people of the female sex and people of the male sex?

I would really appreciate a simple, unequivocal yes/no answer to this, so I would know where you stand and whether or by how much we differ on this, rather than having to guess and make assumptions from various oblique statements and words like “prejudice” and “equality” being bandied around.

TIA.

TalkingintheDark · 02/06/2019 17:06

While I’m waiting for Greyt to come back, allow me to introduce anyone who’s interested to a couple of prominent Trans Rights Activists.

First up is Alex Drummond.

Alex is sexually attracted to women (the ones with vaginas).

You may think Alex is a heterosexual man who likes wearing what is traditionally regarded as women’s clothing.

How wrong you would be! Alex is, of course, not just a woman but also a lesbian!

If you were not as educated as you might be, you might be inclined to dismiss Alex as a fantasist who no one would take seriously anyway and therefore of no consequence to anyone.

But you’d be wrong again! Alex is in fact a member of the Stonewall Trans Advisory Group, an extremely influential lobbying force, which means Alex has the ear of the government, NHS, BBC, schools, multinational corporations etc - quite the powerful voice in this arena.

That’d be the Stonewall whose tagline is “acceptance without exception” by which they mean that if you don’t fully accept Alex as a woman (or any old cross dresser for that matter, seeing as cross dressers are now explicitly included under the Stonewall “Trans Umbrella”) and joyfully embrace Alex being included in all women only spaces, you are a horrid old transphobic bigot and deserve to be taken outside and shot. Well, socially ostracised until you’ve been “re-educated”, anyway.

(For those of you who still believe that most trans identifying males go the whole hog and have their penis removed, I put it to you that if someone doesn’t even feel the need to lose the beard, it’s very unlikely they’ll have lost the genitalia.)

Best thing is if you let Alex tell you about Alex’s self in Alex’s own words - especially the ones about “widening the bandwidth of how to be a woman”
www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/this-transgender-woman-has-a-full-beard-and-she-couldnt-be-h

Anyway. I was going to introduce the gorgeous pouting Pips Bunce as well but have quite run out of time, so that’ll have to be later. And of course Google is your friend.

To not feel happy with gender neutral toilets at work?
Ereshkigal · 02/06/2019 17:48

Anyway. I was going to introduce the gorgeous pouting Pips Bunce as well but have quite run out of time

There were a couple of teasers to Pips earlier. Sadly not the artwork commissioned to depict the dual gendered nature of Pips' existence though. That is very special.

OldCrone · 02/06/2019 17:56

Another great post, TalkingintheDark.

Ereshkigal · 02/06/2019 17:59

As I understand it Pips/Philip has also advised Stonewall on such issues as Girl Guides policy.

SpartacusAutisticusAHF · 02/06/2019 18:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

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