To not feel happy with gender neutral toilets at work?

[BalletBunting]

My company has recently relabelled all toilets on my floor as 'gender neutral'. As well as being rather confused as to what the need is for them (there are no trans people at my work as far as I'm aware) I don't like them, and I would prefer to keep the ladies loo as is. The nearest women's toilets is 3 floors up now!

I don't really feel comfortable going to the loo knowing that there are men in there but I don't really know how to bring this up and with who. I work for a large media company, fairly young/progressive and I don't want to cause trouble for myself.

There was also absolutely no consultation regarding the change. If anyone has been in a similar situation and managed to come to a different solution? Or AIBU and should drop it?

disgusting I cannot bear having to share with men. if they could learn to toilet it would be better but if they insist (and they do) on pissing from a great height they should be segregated.

I think people need to get out of the little bubbles and realise the world doesnt and shouldnt revolve around their own group. We should be supporting equality across all groups of people not playing a "top trumps" for which group is most vulnerable. And when i say groups I mean all sex, gender and orientation

I agree, but one big problem is that Stonewall and those who tow that line do not recognise that sex and gender will conflict at times, and dismiss any suggestion that treating trans women as women in all circumstances might detract from women’s rights, usually with accusations of bigotry etc. Guff such as “not a zero sum game” etc.

People need to recognise that treating trans women as women will at times affect women and be willing to discuss this before we can move forwards.

Gender is a social construct, why not work on breaking down these stereotypes that damage girls and boys?

@OldCrone your post reminded me of the question that no one can ever answer "what does it feel like to be a woman/man without using stereotypes?".

It's also ridiculous to use an argument of 'the men I know don't do [insert whatever]' because no one is ever saying that. The reason a generalisation is used is because it's a male problem.

I refuse to use mixed sex toilets. I physically can't pee if there's a man in the toilets. I dunno why, but I can't. My bladder gets stage fright and I find it hugely embarrassing. Yes, it's a product of how I've been socialised, but that can't be undone now.

I have also on a couple of occasions at work had to undress and dry my skirt or trousers under the hand dryer by the sinks. Once when I spilled a drink on myself and once when caught in a sudden downpour on my way to work. I wouldn't want to do that in mixed sex toilets.

I mean the type with cubicles, not the self contained ones like disabled facilities tend to be. And people likening them to their toilet at home? Nope my home toilet is self contained. It doesn't have cubicles.

No it’s rank men’s loos always stink if wee presumably cause they have no aim, they are less likely to flush and their pooh stinks so no you’re not being unreasonable!

And no women's shit smells ....... ?

I'm being lazy here but after reading the whole thread I can't put it any better than TalkingintheDark, Ereshkigal and ihaventgottimeforthis have. Gender identity cannot trump biological reality when there are valid reasons enshrined in law for spaces, including toilets, to be segregated on sex-based lines.

I will respect anyone's right to call themselves whatever they want, wear whatever they want, live their lives free from harm, harassment, fear or violence, express themselves to the world however they want, enter into a legal mutually consenting relationship with whoever they want, but I will not believe that men can become women and I will not throw women's safety, privacy and dignity under the bus to validate a man's feelings.

But literally any site that challenges these statements will be dismissed as anti-trans, won’t it?

Have a look at this page on fullfact - the study you’re talking about was extremely limited and has no more relevance that any anecdata.
fullfact.org/health/young-trans-people/

the question that no one can ever answer "what does it feel like to be a woman/man without using stereotypes?"

Does it matter that we need to use stereotypes? I feel middle class and a Londoner. I don't think I can explain that without using stereotypes. (I wasn't born in London by the way, and I've felt like a Londoner when I've lived elsewhere!)

GreytExpectations

"Unfortunately some of the posters on this thread do not seem to support the notion of gender identity and simply only care about biology. Its a shame people cant realise that it doesnt have to be one or the other."
What do you mean by "support the notion of gender identity" - what does supporting the notion actually encompass?

I don't think posters are saying they only care about biology. Biology does dictate that we are one of two sexes based on a number of factors and assigned at birth. It is also a fact that sex cannot be changed.

I am sure posters appreciate that some people do not feel as if they are the sex which biology determines they are. It must be difficult for these people psychologically and I am sympathetic and particularly to those who are intersex.

I'm not bothered what gender people wish to refer to themselves as so long as they don't wish me to refer to them as if they are the sex they want to be. I will support them by addressing them by the name of their choosing and by treating them with the same respect and compassion as I treat any other human.

For example:
If John decides he wants to be called Janet and dress in women's clothes and wear a wig and make-up then I will call him Janet.
I will however try to avoid personal pronouns because he is still a man who I just call by his preferred women's name. I will not pretend I think he is now a woman. (I would not refer to him by the pronoun 'He' or 'Him' either as I know he doesn't regard himself as such and wouldn't wish to upset him by doing so).

I don't want to share toilet facilities that are not self-contained with him because I don't want to share that type of toilet facility with any men.

YANBU. It’s bad enough having to put up with DH’s smelly arse at home, let alone random colleagues.

"It's quite possible to believe that people who are trans need access to appropriate spaces and services for their needs, that people should be able to express how they wish, in a way that makes them feel more comfortable, to recognise that someone may have a strong feeling of a gender identity that doesn't match their biological sex, and at the same time believe that this shouldn't impinge on women's rights to spaces and services based on their sex."
I agree with this and strongly reiterate 'only as long as it does not impinge on women's right to spaces and services based on their sex'.

I think transgender people want to be classed as if they are the *sex" of their choice though. So a MTF person would want to use the ladies' toilets because he wants his self-identity to be validated by the rest of us.

I can't see why we can't have 3 separate toilets - for men, women and transgender. I'm sure transgender would object to that even though it is an accurate description of the people who would use them.

It’s bad enough having to put up with DH’s smelly arse at home

He speaks highly of yours too

@mannersmakeththepig

@GreytExpectations

I applaud you for trying to disrupt the echo chamber and bring some balance.

Trust OK to use the Mumsnet functionality of @!

Yanbu I won't use gender neutral toilets . Just use the loos elsewhere in the building.

@FiddlesticksAkimbo I think it does matter because it reinforces what a woman or a man should be and that puts boundaries on girls and boys. It’s OK for a boy to like playing with dolls and makeup, it doesn’t make him a girl. It’s OK for a girl to like playing rugby, it doesn’t make her a boy. Your comparison genuinely (I say that because this thread is quite heated and I really mean what I’m about to say!) don’t understand your comparison, it’s not the same at all.

Hi NKFell,

My comparison was to liken the "social construct" of gender to those of class or being a Londoner. I can explain to you why I feel like a Londoner without being born or currently living in London. I'd guess people could do similar with gender. We could then maybe argue about what being a Londoner means, or what it means to be middle class and it would probably be an interesting discussion, and we might each learn something and shift our positions. We might think social class is a deplorable thing. But I don't think that it would invalidate the concept of class. Could you explain how gender is different? Genuinely interested.

Would you be ok if someone said they felt like a black person when they weren't black. I think that's a more appropriate comparison.

Fiddlesticks
If a man says he feels like a woman, and he genuinely believes that, fine. He's free to feel and believe whatever he wants. But that doesn't actually make him a woman, and we shouldn't be forced to play along with his belief.

Let's say that instead of a Londoner, you felt like a Parisian, despite being British (assuming you're British). Would you expect the French government to give you French citizenship, just because of a feeling you had? And citizenship can be changed, unlike sex, so perhaps not a perfect analogy.

Hi Fiddlesticks

I’m pleased you took my comment the way it was meant! I know what you mean about classes, they’re a social construct just as gender is.

To me, being a woman isn’t about the stereotype it’s just what I am and it can’t change. I sort of got beaten to the point I was going to make, I’m British and live a very similar life to my White neighbours, I wear the same clothes (you know what I mean, we don’t have a uniform ), watch the same TV, same jobs, music, language etc. but I’m not white. I’m Black, it’s just what I am, to me being a woman is the same comparison. It’s not about clothes or stereotypes, it’s who I am. No one can identify as Black or White or any other race, it’s just what you are and to me, being a man or woman is just what you are. Both different, both equal. To be clear, I have no problem with people dressing however they want and I’ll use whatever pronoun they would prefer but I won’t call a man a woman or a woman a man.

I agree with this. The problem is that some people want to remove some women's rights in favour of some very vocal males.

Im sorry but you lost me on this. I dont agree with this statement and if i gave my true opinion than id be subject to a lot of abuse and insults on here, im sure.

Thanks, all interesting responses!

We talk about sex as biological and gender as a social construct. Is ethnicity the equivalent "social construct" in relation to the biological fact of skin colour? I guess it is.

If for some reason a person felt more drawn to an ethnic culture other than the one that their skin colour suggests let's just say it would be nice if they were accepted by that culture. Although obviously their skin colour would not change any more than someone's sex would change (so I agree with you Old Crone).

NKFell, I think you're right. I'm terms of "cultural" differences there's not a whole lot of differences between me and my black friends, so the "social construct" thing doesn't really apply between us. To the extent that life treats us differently that does simply come down to skin colour (and unfortunately racism), and skin colour is obviously inherent.

I should say that I'm all for removing the limitations which society places on us through the concept of class, skin colour or sex. But when someone says that they feel more like a man than a woman, or more middle class than working class the fact that they need to refer to currently common stereotypes to explain that does not invalidate their feelings I think.

PS I should have said that I'm white!

How surprising they are leaving.

Not really surprising as i wouldnt want to waste time trying to have a debate with someone like you, Ereshkigal