To not feel happy with gender neutral toilets at work?

[BalletBunting]

My company has recently relabelled all toilets on my floor as 'gender neutral'. As well as being rather confused as to what the need is for them (there are no trans people at my work as far as I'm aware) I don't like them, and I would prefer to keep the ladies loo as is. The nearest women's toilets is 3 floors up now!

I don't really feel comfortable going to the loo knowing that there are men in there but I don't really know how to bring this up and with who. I work for a large media company, fairly young/progressive and I don't want to cause trouble for myself.

There was also absolutely no consultation regarding the change. If anyone has been in a similar situation and managed to come to a different solution? Or AIBU and should drop it?

mannersmakeththepig
Stop hiding behind the one article you found in the name of ‘scientific evidence’ (which is irrelevant to this discussion as it was recording incidents in 1 locale during a set time period) and look at the number of incidences which have happened as a result of males being allowed to use women’s bathrooms.

(I love how you are so set on reading the evidence but the links I sent were dismissed by you as irrelevant and biased because they backed up what I was saying by the way!)

You are using the ‘NAMALT’ argument - we know that not all men are rapists, but that doesn’t mean that we should disregard the fact that men do rape!

Women are oppressed because of their sex- and to dismiss this is to dismiss the very of root of feminism.

Why do others women’s boundaries bother you so much ?

I’m not hiding behind anything, sweetie. I’m challenging nonsense masqueraded as evidence.

The great thing about science is that it is entirely based on the idea of disproving. An idea is only valid for as long as it takes to disprove it.

So, yes, I linked to one paper done in one place at one time. It supports the hypothesis that making bathrooms mixed doesn’t make them less safe for women.

The next study may not support this hypothesis.

But you know what definitely doesn’t count? You saying ‘look at all the times this has happened’. Because, you know, many anecdotes don’t equal data.

However, I will gladly read anything you want to post from a valid source. I don’t remember your links. Were they the ones to the antitrans site?

Which bit was biased? The computer modelling? Hahahaha. This does make me chuckle.

Why? Have you ever worked with computer models? Are you saying they can't be biased? Hmmm.

Or as the saying goes, "All models are wrong, but some are useful".

Peer reviewed science papers published in legitimate journals have to go through loads of checking to see that the method is sound, address any concerns about bias, check the maths etc etc.

Peer review is a flawed process, which in itself is not enough to keep mediocre research from being published. And of course, some non-peer-reviewed articles are published in journals which have a peer-review process (they might be 'news' or 'opinion' pieces). Don't want to derail, so I suggest you read up about what it really means. One link here, but DYOR.

blogs.library.duke.edu/scholcomm/2013/10/10/the-big-picture-about-peer-review/

That is how propaganda works. Look, it’s worked on you!

@TalkingintheDark Just because you dont have the same opinion as me doesn't give you the right to belittle and patronize me. If you aren't capable of having a debate without resorting to petty insults and sarcasm than I really can't take anything you say seriously.

@mannersmakeththepig

"I am in favour of reducing discrimination for everyone."
I am sure many, if not most of us, would like to reduce discrimination in all its forms for as many people as possible. However, in certain situations it is not possible to.
eg

1. The case where Christian hoteliers did not want to allow homosexual guests to book a stay in their hotel rooms;
2. The case where Christian bakers did not want to ice a cake with an LGBT message (I can't remember the exact specifics).

If you try to reduce discrimination against one group of people then another group of people feel discriminated against. What to do??

What would you suggest is a way to deal with the toilets issues that reduces discrimination against everyone?

Is it even actually discriminating against transgender people for them to use the toilet assigned to their biological sex when sex cannot be changed?

It's quite possible to believe that people who are trans need access to appropriate spaces and services for their needs, that people should be able to express how they wish, in a way that makes them feel more comfortable, to recognise that someone may have a strong feeling of a gender identity that doesn't match their biological sex, and at the same time believe that this shouldn't impinge on women's rights to spaces and services based on their sex.

@Ihaventgottimeforthis this is very well said and I agree. Unfortunately some of the posters on this thread do not seem to support the notion of gender identity and simply only care about biology. Its a shame people cant realise that it doesnt have to be one or the other.

Disprove the stats

I've already linked to a debunking of the suicide stats.

Whilst we're all on about science, can someone explain why male defecation smells worse than female. Anyone who has lived with men will know this to be a fact.

Yesterday I was sitting in a pub next to the male toilets. Suddenly a terrible smell came snaking out of the door. Same happened at my old workplace with poorly-positioned toilets. I'm not saying women's toilets always smell of roses, but they certainly are not prone to the gut-wrenchingly bad smell of a gents'.

So even aside from security and personal comfort, I do not want to have to enter an enclosed windowless cubicle after a man has been resident in there for ten minutes.

If you try to reduce discrimination against one group of people then another group of people feel discriminated against. What to do??

I think people need to get out of the little bubbles and realise the world doesnt and shouldnt revolve around their own group. We should be supporting equality across all groups of people not playing a "top trumps" for which group is most vulnerable. And when i say groups I mean all sex, gender and orientation.

Anyone who has lived with men will know this to be a fact.

I really dont think its fact and ive not experienced it when the men i live with. But im sure some posters will come along shortly with some massive generalisation about all men

We should be supporting equality across all groups of people not playing a "top trumps" for which group is most vulnerable.

I agree with this. The problem is that some people want to remove some women's rights in favour of some very vocal males.

@oldcrone

I’m not reading anything on an anti trans site. I’ve already said this. Proper sources, please. (For someone else to read, not me, I’m off)

@idontwanttotalk

The right to discriminate is not a right worth protecting. So, you know, I’d go with the gays over the god botherers in those examples.

But, alas, I must bid this thread farewell. It’s been fun, but now it’s just boring and I can smell the weekend.

And for all of you who are going to take my leaving as a sign that you’ve won, pat yourselves on the back and feel awesome.

You haven’t, but I can be magnanimous in victory.

Laters, cupcakes.

Manners for god's sake stop patronising.

I’m challenging nonsense masqueraded as evidence. The great thing about science is that it is entirely based on the idea of disproving. An idea is only valid for as long as it takes to disprove it.

It's really pretty easy to show that single-sex facilities are safer and better for women and girls. Try UNESCO, WHO etc for stats. You seem to have evidence from modelling that the queues are quicker, but I'll take a slower safer all-female experience over a riskier one, thanks.

And then the flounce...

There are a lot of very patient women on this site.

@mannersmakeththepig
I’m not reading anything on an anti trans site. I’ve already said this. Proper sources, please.

It's not anti-trans, but you should be open to reading all sources. I clicked on your Stonewall (anti-woman site) link - and found the link from there to the study (probably another anti-woman site) was broken, and you never came back with another link.

You only learn if you read the views you disagree with as well as the ones you agree with - then you can learn to dismantle poor arguments. Try it!

greytExpectations but in some circumstances it DOES have to be one or the other.
Single sex bathrooms and changing rooms for example.
Or for me saying I want a female HCP to do my smear test.
Etc etc.
Gender identity and sex do clash sometimes, unfortunately. And when they do, I'm on the side of the female sex.

Always the "I won really" flounce. LOL.

Do you get that a group that only includes trans women is smaller than a group that includes both trans women AND trans men. Do you, in fact, understand maths?

Oh dear.

In terms of adults, there are considerably fewer trans identifying females than males, so a minority of an already tiny, niche minority + the rest of that tiny, niche minority still = a tiny, niche minority of the population.

Unlike women, who = just over half the population.

And yet aren’t well funded enough to ensure reproductive rights and safety from male violence for all women and girls.

I don’t really think it was the inclusion of those trans identifying females that swung it on the funding front, and I don’t think you think so either, do you?

“Maths”

I agree with this. The problem is that some people want to remove some women's rights in favour of some very vocal males.

Indeed.

I wonder if manners would support the idea of removing funding from the limited number of womens' refuges and rape crisis centres that don't cater for trans women, because they are single sex only.

Unfortunately some of the posters on this thread do not seem to support the notion of gender identity

Some of them probably don’t believe in God or transsubstantiation either!

Shocking, I know.

I can't believe that poster is even trying to argue that it's not a male dominated, male centric movement. How surprising they are leaving.

If you aren't capable of having a debate without resorting to petty insults and sarcasm than I really can't take anything you say seriously.

But I was being entirely serious. You have been conned. Propaganda works; why else would companies spend billions and billions on advertising?

You have just fallen for some very slick and well promoted advertising. You’re in good company; many, many people whom I otherwise respect and admire have done the same.

Fallibility is part of being human, after all.

Eresh - I know!

Unfortunately some of the posters on this thread do not seem to support the notion of gender identity

Can you explain what you mean by gender identity, Greyt? Usually when people explain it they either use stereotypes (regressive, sexist, homophobic), or they talk about an 'essence' or something that sounds like a soul (religious).