To not feel happy with gender neutral toilets at work?

[BalletBunting]

My company has recently relabelled all toilets on my floor as 'gender neutral'. As well as being rather confused as to what the need is for them (there are no trans people at my work as far as I'm aware) I don't like them, and I would prefer to keep the ladies loo as is. The nearest women's toilets is 3 floors up now!

I don't really feel comfortable going to the loo knowing that there are men in there but I don't really know how to bring this up and with who. I work for a large media company, fairly young/progressive and I don't want to cause trouble for myself.

There was also absolutely no consultation regarding the change. If anyone has been in a similar situation and managed to come to a different solution? Or AIBU and should drop it?

You have been conned.

Well no, i havnt as im pretty certain the people who i know who did and attempted to commit suicide really were in a dark place. Therefore I trust facts, not a prejudiced random on Mumsnet.

No I agree fiddlesticks I don’t mean to invalidate how someone feels but I’m just curious what makes them feel that way, often it’s because they’ve been drawn to girls/boys toys and often say they felt like the odd one out and had a tough time. I think it would surely be more helpful to put time and effort into stopping this instead of putting ideas of changing sex.

Saying ‘I like makeup and having my nails done’ to me reduces women to a costume. Just as if someone said they felt black because they liked jerk chicken and reggae, most people (I hope) would know that’s not right. It’s OK to be white and like both of those things or to be black and like neither- we know that, so why don’t we know when it comes to women?

Can you explain what you mean by gender identity, Greyt?

I mean the gender (man or woman) people identify as. This is relating to those who feel they were born the incorrect physical sex. As im sure plenty of you will deny it, gender dysphoria is an real thing. I feel sad for those who suffer in silence for fear of trying to live the way they feel they should.

I will await the mumsnet onslaught now...

Highly relevant article which puts into words how men can use female spaces to harass women.

www.thenational.scot/news/17674915.shona-craven-the-bogeyman-lurking-in-womens-toilets-is-real/

Formerly female spaces, I should say.

Yep. I have never had a manicure but I do have menorrhagia, c-section scars, some violent sexual experiences and near-misses dating from girlhood and I can look forward to early perimenopause like my mother and grandmother. But if I mention that shit, some trans types find it 'othering'. Fuck em tbh.

Thanks for answering, Greyt, but you haven't really answered at all. What do you mean by 'identify as'? I am a woman, but that's not because I identify as one, it's because of biology. And what do you mean by 'feel they were born the incorrect physical sex'? Is that like someone feeling they are too short or too tall, or a disabled person feeling as though they shouldn't be disabled?

As im sure plenty of you will deny it, gender dysphoria is an real thing. I feel sad for those who suffer in silence for fear of trying to live the way they feel they should.

Gender dysphoria is a real thing, of course, although there actually seem to be two conditions, gender dysphoria and sex dysphoria. I'd always assumed these to be the same, but sex dysphoria seems to be hatred of body parts (the penis for example), which for some trans people is only fixed with genital surgery.

There is also gender dysphoria, which appears to mean that people feel restricted by society's gender roles. This one baffles me. I have never felt there are any restrictions on what I can do simply because I'm a woman. And if there were, I'd think it was society that needed to change - and become more progressive - rather than me changing to fit society, which seems a very regressive and sexist solution.

But if I mention that shit, some trans types find it 'othering'. Fuck em tbh.

What are you even talking about???

@OldCrone i dont understand why you are quizzing me on this? I answered your question. If you are unsure there are plenty of resources on the internet but to help you here is a wiki page: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity

Its 2019, people should really know this stuff.

Don't you know? I'm talking about inadequates who resent the discussion of women's issues because they worry that the attention is being taken from them.

Like that arse on Twitter two weeks ago ... a man in a wig and lipstick... who used the horrendous new abortion laws in America to posture about trans identity bs.

Grey well, I know that gender identity and trans ideology are a house of cards built on sand. I’d love for someone who believes in this stuff to once, just once, tell me something that actually makes sense and stands up to scrutiny, but 3 years of asking, I’m still waiting.

Women forced to endure pregnancies resulting from incest and rape... does that upset him? No. Let's make this about me me me somehow.

Well those were lots of lovely words about other cultures making people feel welcome but it didn't actually mean anything did it. If a white person feels as if they are black are they entitled to awards or scholarships specifically for black people. Could they for example claim to have been the victim of hate crime on account of feeling like a black person. You can feel anything you like but you are not a black person.

thanks for the link to the wiki page, Greyt. This is how it defines gender identity.

All societies have a set of gender categories that can serve as the basis of the formation of a person's social identity in relation to other members of society.

In most societies, there is a basic division between gender attributes assigned to males and females, a gender binary to which most people adhere and which includes expectations of masculinity and femininity in all aspects of sex and gender: biological sex, gender identity, and gender expression.

So you've confirmed that it is all based around stereotypes. It's 2019, we really should have got past these narrow definitions of how people should behave. Are you sure we haven't all got in a time machine and gone back a hundred years or more?

I'm actually quite disturbed that that drivel that I've quoted is still around in this day and age. I really did think we'd left that behind many years ago.

Hi Birdsdestiny

Well those were lots of lovely words about other cultures making people feel welcome but it didn't actually mean anything did it.
Do you think we can disguish (a) "biological race" from (b) some sort of "social construct" around race and ethnicity? Frankly I don't know that either of those things has much meaning. How do you define who is black? But you were the one who wanted to use them as comparators to sex and gender.

If a white person feels as if they are black are they entitled to awards or scholarships specifically for black people.
I can see whole lot of problems for any organisation awarding grants to black people in deciding who qualifies, not least because of the problem I suggested above of deciding who is black. Deciding who is female is a whole lot easier.

Could they for example claim to have been the victim of hate crime on account of feeling like a black person.
Not exactly my field of expertise, but in the field of discrimination law there is such a thing as discrimination by perception – discrimination against someone because others think that they possess a particular protected characteristic. They do not necessarily have to possess the characteristic, just be perceived to.

You can feel anything you like but you are not a black person.
I agree

Its 2019, people should really know this stuff.

You really are blissfully, unforgivably unaware of the horrific extent of your own ignorance, Greyt.

It’s 2019, you really should deal with your internalised misogyny and stop being such a woman hating bigot.

Why are we comparing race and gender? They are completely different and its insulting to suggest they are the same.

It’s 2019, you really should deal with your internalised misogyny and stop being such a woman hating bigot

Hahahaha this made me life. How exactly am I woman hating? Because i support equality and care abour everyones feelings. Dont make assumptions about me.

Laugh not life.

It's an analogy, a good one that helps highlight the ridiculousness of the idea of a man becoming a woman merely by claiming he is one.

It wasn't me miss, Birdsdestiny started it

Moreover what has it got to do with who's allowed in whose bogs?

the ridiculousness of the idea of a man becoming a woman merely by claiming he is one.

If you researched gender dysphoria you would realise it isnt just about a man claiming to be a woman and calling it ridiculous is offensive. What are your thoughts on women who identify as men?

It does not make him a woman. I don't give a shit if you are offended by biological facts tbh.

t's an analogy, a good one that helps highlight the ridiculousness of the idea of a man becoming a woman merely by claiming he is one.
I don't think it is. You can't easily define scientifically who is black. You can easily define who is female.

For those of you who need educating: www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

Yes, the NHS even has a page because it os considered a condition