To not feel happy with gender neutral toilets at work?

[BalletBunting]

My company has recently relabelled all toilets on my floor as 'gender neutral'. As well as being rather confused as to what the need is for them (there are no trans people at my work as far as I'm aware) I don't like them, and I would prefer to keep the ladies loo as is. The nearest women's toilets is 3 floors up now!

I don't really feel comfortable going to the loo knowing that there are men in there but I don't really know how to bring this up and with who. I work for a large media company, fairly young/progressive and I don't want to cause trouble for myself.

There was also absolutely no consultation regarding the change. If anyone has been in a similar situation and managed to come to a different solution? Or AIBU and should drop it?

So glad I don’t have to deal with this.

When I’m on my period, which is 33-50% of the time (thanks endometriosis and adenomyosis, such lovely conditions to deal with) it’s physically impossible to wipe without getting blood all over my hands, especially in offices which generally have thin, crappy toilet roll. I try to carry wet wipes with me at all times but it dries so quickly. It’s not gone until I can wash my hands in a sink. It’s bad enough having to deal with this in front of other women.

Greyt. Good news for you. Trans people AREN’T dying by suicide in large numbers at all. In fact, males who identify as trans are some of the safest people in the world, especially the ones who are white and middle class.

I know that’s warmed your heart. So you can stop using the completely fake stats peddled by groups like Mermaids; you wouldn’t want to go against the Samaritans’ guidance on suicide and increase the likelihood of it by constantly talking about it and over inflating the likelihood of it now, would you? Because you care about trans people, don’t you?

Secondly, calling the topic of suicide rate propaganda and emotional blackmail is minimizing it. It suggests that it shouldn't be taken seriously which is offensive to a lot of people.

I didn't say child suicide shouldn't be taken seriously. It's extremely disingenuous and yes, deliberate propaganda to conflate suicide with suicide attempts. If you read the Williams study usually quoted in America there is rather a long disclaimer about the unreliability of self reported data for this purpose. There is no documented trans suicide epidemic.

It's not the fault of women who want privacy and dignity that these troubled people attempt suicide. Many have considerable comorbid mental health issues, even leaving aside the disputed nature of gender dysphoria itself.

Suggesting that suicide rates whether committed or attempted is propaganda is very offensive and its minimizing because it suggests that it shouldn't be taken seriously, when it should.

No, it really doesn't "suggest" anything of the sort, and that is a smear on me which is completely unjustified. Do you understand how propaganda works? Do you not care that statements around suicide are accurate?

TalkingintheDark
I know that’s warmed your heart. So you can stop using the completely fake stats peddled by groups like Mermaids; you wouldn’t want to go against the Samaritans’ guidance on suicide and increase the likelihood of it by constantly talking about it and over inflating the likelihood of it now, would you? Because you care about trans people, don’t you?

Where exactly did I state any statistics? Also, unlike you and many on this thread I care about the mental well being of all types of people, including trans AND women.
If you are going to be sarcastic and goady in your replies then I'm not going to engage with you.

For those who didn't read my posts clearly. I didn't say specifically trans suicide, I said its offensive for those suffering. Those as in anyone.

@talkinginthedark

And the relevance is that you have now demonstrated that this is indeed a Men’s Rights movement

No, I haven’t. Don’t twist my words. You asked if I thought that if it was just women, would it be as quick to change. And I don’t. Doesn’t make this a MRM. And once again, your failure to see anything wrong with calling trans women ‘men’ is gross.

I know absolutely fuck all about the mysterious millionaire benefactor but it’s a safe bet that a cause that included a bigger group of people tend to do better than more niche ones.

Forgot to add, I would very much like to identify out of periods in general, and endometriosis/adenomyosis in particular. If anyone has any tips, I’m all ears.

Balletbunting please forgive me for being so rude and entering the discussion without actually addressing your AIBU.

YANBU, of course. I don’t know what you can do about it but maybe you could sound out some of the other women there, and if there are enough of you who feel the same, you might stand more chance of being listened to, and you don’t risk being singled out as a “bigot”. Or do you have a sympathetic union rep? Assuming they haven’t been “captured”.

I’m not familiar with H & S regulations but I do believe that the thing about the sinks needing to be in the cubicles if they’re mixed sex is a genuine point, hopefully someone with the relevant expertise can advice you. Or perhaps post in legal?

Good luck. I hope your workplace isn’t full of capitulated women.

If you are going to be sarcastic and goady in your replies then I'm not going to engage with you.

Such a loss.

Do you understand how propaganda works? Do you not care that statements around suicide are accurate?

Please stop patronizing me by asking if I understand how things work, i'm not a child- i'm an educated adult feminist woman who stays up to date on current issues and events in the world so yes I know how propaganda works. Having a different opinion does not entitle you to question the intelligence of somebody.

I care that people like you don't minimize suicide in any type of person: men, women or trans. You don't agree that you are minimizing it-fine but I still believe that you are. I'm not going to change my opinion nor take back what I said just because you don't agree with it.

The fact that you don't care about women's feelings about males invading female spaces is gross. Internalised misogyny. Why do only male feelings matter to you?

I'm not going to change my opinion that you don't know what you're talking about, either.

The fact that you don't care about women's feelings about males invading female spaces is gross. Internalised misogyny. Why do only male feelings matter to you?

Who is this aimed at? If it's me, i'd love for you to point out where I said I don't care about women's feelings because I know that is not at all what I said. I care about everybody's feelings.

It wasn't aimed at you. The second one was.

I'm not going to change my opinion that you don't know what you're talking about, either.

Well done for you, it's a shame you can't discuss a subject with someone who disagrees with you without insulting their intelligence.

I know absolutely fuck all about the mysterious millionaire benefactor but it’s a safe bet that a cause that included a bigger group of people tend to do better than more niche ones.

Nothing mysterious, it’s all out there in the Internet. George Soros, “Jennifer” Pritzker, “Martine” Rothblatt are all immensely wealthy male individuals who benefited massively from their male privilege and start in life and have all contributed huge sums to the TRA movement.

Men funding the fight to get other men an even bigger share of the pie than they already have. What’s gross is women like you backing them up. It actually disgusts me.

I’m confused about your “bigger groups of people” comment though. I thought trans people were such a tiny, vulnerable minority? The very definition of niche, really?

Certainly nowhere near the numbers of actual women whose rights no one is rushing to defend and fund in the same way.

I care about everybody's feelings.

I haven’t seen you caring about the feelings of women who want to retain single sex spaces. Not one bit.

Greyt

I'm entitled to my own opinion on that intelligence every bit as much as you are to think I'm minimising suicide by pointing out clear inaccuracies and use as emotional blackmail.

Are you familiar with the Duluth wheel? I am a victim of DV and my abusive partner controlled me with suicide threats, among other things. It's a well known method that abusive people use to manipulate others. The stats trans organisations use are bogus. Educate yourself. Not engaging with you further.

I haven’t seen you caring about the feelings of women who want to retain single sex spaces. Not one bit

You clearly aren't reading my posts properly then.

@ereshkigal

Which bathroom study was biased? The one where the economists at LSE computer modelled wait times for gender neutral facilities and compared them with single sex ones? Lol. Which bit was biased? The computer modelling? Hahahaha. This does make me chuckle.

Since you’ve made me laugh, I’ll let you in on a little secret. Peer reviewed science papers published in legitimate journals have to go through loads of checking to see that the method is sound, address any concerns about bias, check the maths etc etc. Websites (on either side of any debate) don’t. So by all means, share some evidence about any of the dangers posed by mixed sex facilities or trans men, or women or you know, that the sky is green. But make it legit, sweetie. Otherwise it’s just going to make me laugh some more. And I know you’re not here to do that.

Also, upthread you suggest the attempted suicide stats I shared were untrue and propaganda. Can you please link to some evidence of this? I got them from a legit source (don’t know what mermaids is) but if it’s wrong, it would be great to know.

Suggesting that suicide rates whether committed or attempted is propaganda is very offensive

But it is propaganda. These false “statistics” are lied about, inflated, and bandied about as if they were the gospel truth for a very deliberate reason: to propagate the idea that trans people are the most vulnerable on the entire planet and that all right-thinking people should put their needs above everybody else’s, particularly above women’s.

That is how propaganda works. Look, it’s worked on you!

mannersmakeththepig
And I would love to hear your take-down of the Lancet paper. Go on, I’m sure you’ll do a better job than the peers that reviewed it

I've already explained to you that the Lancet paper you linked to is mainly about Mexican transgender/transsexual prostitutes. Is that really what we're discussing here?

evidence does support the idea that marginalised communities (incl trans) that face discrimination are more likely to have mental health issues

Women are often discriminated against. Do women count as 'marginalised' in your view?

It's quite possible to believe that people who are trans need access to appropriate spaces and services for their needs, that people should be able to express how they wish, in a way that makes them feel more comfortable, to recognise that someone may have a strong feeling of a gender identity that doesn't match their biological sex, and at the same time believe that this shouldn't impinge on women's rights to spaces and services based on their sex.
Just because some people believe in gender identity and ascribe importance to it, doesn't mean we all have to. And especially not when those people argue that rights concerning gender reassignment take priority over sex-based rights.
We can be gender critical and still believe that trans rights are human rights. Defending women's sex-based rights doesn't make us all trump supporting tabloid readers!

I’m confused about your “bigger groups of people” comment though. I thought trans people were such a tiny, vulnerable minority? The very definition of niche, really?

Do you get that a group that only includes trans women is smaller than a group that includes both trans women AND trans men. Do you, in fact, understand maths?

These false “statistics” are lied about, inflated, and bandied about

Evidence or it didn’t happen. Go on. Disprove the stats. Show how fast they are. Go on, dare ya.

And as sad as your experience of fake suicide threats is (and I genuinely mean that, whatever our differences in opinion), it isn’t evidence of a wider misrepresentation of suicide / self harming stats.