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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not feel happy with gender neutral toilets at work?

778 replies

BalletBunting · 30/05/2019 13:01

My company has recently relabelled all toilets on my floor as 'gender neutral'. As well as being rather confused as to what the need is for them (there are no trans people at my work as far as I'm aware) I don't like them, and I would prefer to keep the ladies loo as is. The nearest women's toilets is 3 floors up now!

I don't really feel comfortable going to the loo knowing that there are men in there but I don't really know how to bring this up and with who. I work for a large media company, fairly young/progressive and I don't want to cause trouble for myself.

There was also absolutely no consultation regarding the change. If anyone has been in a similar situation and managed to come to a different solution? Or AIBU and should drop it?

OP posts:
mannersmakeththepig · 31/05/2019 14:49

“QueenOfTheTofuTree

I believe Tavistock provides support up until early 20's?

And we are constantly told that trans children and teenagers will very likely commit suicide if we don't validate their identity. But if Tavistock have confirmed that only one young person under their care has commited suicide then that can't be the case”

So what you’re saying is that only one person who is currently undergoing mental health support for being trans has killed themselves. Which is pretty much the opposite of what you wanted to say, isn’t it?!

By definition, kids at the Tavistock are being helped, or validated or whatever you want to call it. So you would expect that fewer of them would harm themselves.

TalkingintheDark · 31/05/2019 14:51

A few years ago there was a school local to us where somebody discovered a hidden camera in the staff/visitors’ toilet.

(Used by adults of both sexes, enclosed floor to ceiling room with a washbasin.)

It had been put there by the Site Manager (that’s caretaker in old money for those unfamiliar) and I bet you can all guess which of the two sexes that person belonged to.

So the idea that even these kinds of toilets are always completely safe and that your work colleagues - even those in a school, FFS - are never predators is absolute bullshit. This is the reality of the world we live in.

You have to ask yourself why anyone would promote systems that elevate the risk to women and girls even higher than it already is.

GreytExpectations · 31/05/2019 14:51

@mannersmakeththepig I applaud you for lasting this long on the forum. I gave up ages ago and honestly don't wish to engage anymore based on the mindset of the most the poster on here. Just felt the need to call out those minimizing suicide and mental health issues.

BobLemon · 31/05/2019 14:52

The poor blokes, having to share with women! I used to work in facilities maintenance for call centres. The ladies were way worse than the blokes Envy

Happyspud · 31/05/2019 14:52

Everyone’s an expert (except the people themselves of course, they don’t have a clue).

Happyspud · 31/05/2019 14:53
Hmm
mannersmakeththepig · 31/05/2019 14:53

Talkinthedark

I’m very happy to read any legitimate source you put in front of me - but an anti trans site isn’t going to cut it.

GreytExpectations · 31/05/2019 14:56

The ladies were way worse than the blokes

I've seen ladies toilets left in a vile state! Un-flushed poo, period blood all in an around the toilet, pads/tampons on top of the bins, not in them, piss on the seat from those who "hover". Its awful. Often it seems to be a result of women being afraid of being heard, so clog the toilet with toilet roll (stupid and environmentally awful), they also don't want to touch anything so don't bother flushing or sitting all the way down on the seat- if I was a man I wouldn't want to share with them!

mannersmakeththepig · 31/05/2019 14:57

GreytExpectations

Ah, I’m fresh to it. But I have reached my limit. It’s really hard to counter people who can’t / won’t / don’t understand what constitutes evidence / stats / scientific method.

I guess it’s why Trump does so well. Eventually everyone gets bored of trying to prove the sky is blue in the face of someone saying it isn’t. Then we wander off and let him think he’s won.

When in fact everyone has lost.

DodoPatrol · 31/05/2019 14:59

Some of you should read some papers of the scientific variety, rather than red topped.

For some of us, reading scientific papers is quite literally the day job.

For some of us, supporting young people with serious mental health issues is the on-top-of-that, never-ending job.

Why are you assuming ignorance of the issues?

Ereshkigal · 31/05/2019 15:01

Just felt the need to call out those minimizing suicide and mental health issues.

Who is doing that?

GreytExpectations · 31/05/2019 15:01

mannersmakeththepig

I always make the mistake of giving my opinion on these threads and then essentially being told to fuck off because the majority don't agree (sadly, people still seem to forget how opinions actually work). I get angry reading threads like these. I need to start hiding them...

Ereshkigal · 31/05/2019 15:02

Eventually everyone gets bored of trying to prove the sky is blue in the face of someone saying it isn’t.

Oh yes, of course, people that know how biology works are the clueless ones. And people that think you can change sex aren't. Definitely.

GreytExpectations · 31/05/2019 15:03

@Ereshkigal well considering I quoted your post its a bit obvious who I was suggesting but I assume you are asking to be pedantic.

Ereshkigal · 31/05/2019 15:04

I’m very happy to read any legitimate source you put in front of me - but an anti trans site isn’t going to cut it.

Your "bathrooms" study was just as biased. Why do you imagine that gender critical people can't carry out legitimate research?

Treefloof · 31/05/2019 15:04

However, for me work is different as I know the guys I work with and my employee has risk assessed them
Aside from the very obvious and almost common occurrence of men that women work with being perverts, does your place of work never have visitors? No deliveries, no clients, no staff from other sites? All of whom cannot have been risk assesed

Ereshkigal · 31/05/2019 15:07

I wasn't minimising anything. And politely requesting that you don't @ me.

Disbelieving the propaganda and pointing out its inaccuracies isn't minimising suicide, I'll thank you to retract that smear.

TalkingintheDark · 31/05/2019 15:09

Ah, thank you for answering those questions, manners!

And the relevance is that you have now demonstrated that this is indeed a Men’s Rights movement in which those with existing (sex) class privilege are using that class privilege and power and economic advantage to exert a new form of dominance over the class they have always traditionally dominated.

If this were not about making sure men/males have even more rights over even more areas of the public world than they already do (and one of the huge reasons women’s spaces are SO important is that the vast, vast majority of public space is “owned” by men and frequently unsafe for or hostile to women: the ubiquity of sexual harassment makes that clear) then the whole bloody thing would never have got off the ground in the first place!

If it were really about the rights and safety of a vulnerable, marginalised minority, they wouldn’t have this power, they wouldn’t have this much of a voice, they wouldn’t have this influence with which to make governments, corporations, state institutions, the media, places of education, sporting bodies etc etc etc roll over and do their bidding in the blink of an eye.

Your naïveté in believing this is all just because we’re better at being progressive this days is sweet but shocking, cupcake. Look what’s happening to women all over the world including right here.

Look at the paltry figures on rape and sexual abuse convictions, the absolute trashing of women’s reputations and lives that happens in high profile rape cases, the double standards that still pervade every aspect of our lives, the number of women in relationships with abusive men, the number of men who walk away from their children without a second thought leaving the women to bear the entire financial and emotional burden of raising their children, the porn and prostitution industry... the list goes on and on and on.

Yes, there has been some progress. But nowhere near the level you seem to think it’s at, and nowhere near enough to make the trajectory of genuinely disadvantaged groups as smooth as the TRAs’ has been. The reason that this movement is sweeping all before it is because it is the privileged and powerful demanding concessions of the disadvantaged and relatively powerless.

Civil rights, my arse.

You’ve been had.

Ereshkigal · 31/05/2019 15:11

sweeping all before it is because it is the privileged and powerful demanding concessions of the disadvantaged and relatively powerless.

Absolutely the heart of the matter here.

GreytExpectations · 31/05/2019 15:13

I wasn't minimizing anything. And politely requesting that you don't @ me.

Firstly, you can turn off Email notifications... Seems a bit weird to dictate how people are allowed to reply to you.

Secondly, calling the topic of suicide rate propaganda and emotional blackmail is minimizing it. It suggests that it shouldn't be taken seriously which is offensive to a lot of people.

TalkingintheDark · 31/05/2019 15:13

manners you really think you’re the one saying the sky is blue?!!!

Oh my aching sides

Ereshkigal · 31/05/2019 15:14

It's a polite request, it would be really quite rude and goady to continue. Do you know you can bold without writing @?

TalkingintheDark · 31/05/2019 15:15

Disbelieving the propaganda and pointing out its inaccuracies isn't minimising suicide, I'll thank you to retract that smear.

Well said, Ereshkigal.

mannersmakeththepig · 31/05/2019 15:16

@Dodopatrol
The pertinent word would be ‘some’. And I’m betting the ones I’m referring to definitely don’t read much in the way of peer reviewed papers, based on the ‘proof’ they’re using to scaremonger. Wish you the best in your difficult endeavours.

@erishkigal

Biological sex and socially-constructed gender are not the same thing. No-one, least of all me is saying someone born with male chromosomes and male body parts can change their biological sex. I have no idea what proportion of trans people believe this either.

I also believe that someone who has lived a proportion of their life as one gender will have a very different understanding of the opposite gender than someone born into it.

But I am totally ok with someone deciding that they want to live as a different gender. I don’t feel that my identity as a woman is being eroded, I don’t believe I’m under attack from trans women or trans men.

I will admit that I am pretty confused about how we construct the notion of gender now, and what is ‘feminine’ and ‘masculine’. Like, I wear trousers and work in a trad male role, but I also have long hair and boobs. But that’s ok, live and let live.

One thing I’m not confused about is that the OP is BVU for complaining about the toilets nearest her being mixed despite there being single sex ones elsewhere in the building.

GreytExpectations · 31/05/2019 15:19

It's a polite request, it would be really quite rude and goady to continue. Do you know you can bold without writing @?

Of course I know that- i've bene doing it on MN for quite some time. but you dictating how someone should reply and then asking them to take back a statement they made is quite rude.

I will not take back my statement that you are minimizing suicide however, I won't @ you. Suggesting that suicide rates whether committed or attempted is propaganda is very offensive and its minimizing because it suggests that it shouldn't be taken seriously, when it should. But I've already said all of this which for some reason you didn't respond to.

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