To not feel happy with gender neutral toilets at work?

[BalletBunting]

My company has recently relabelled all toilets on my floor as 'gender neutral'. As well as being rather confused as to what the need is for them (there are no trans people at my work as far as I'm aware) I don't like them, and I would prefer to keep the ladies loo as is. The nearest women's toilets is 3 floors up now!

I don't really feel comfortable going to the loo knowing that there are men in there but I don't really know how to bring this up and with who. I work for a large media company, fairly young/progressive and I don't want to cause trouble for myself.

There was also absolutely no consultation regarding the change. If anyone has been in a similar situation and managed to come to a different solution? Or AIBU and should drop it?

I think you'll find they often do, not just period blood hmm what do you think people do when they cut themselves?

I think you’ll find that capillary/venous blood isn’t loaded with bacteria like menstrual blood is.

You can get some stats for young suicides from the ONS. Teenage suicides in total are under 200 a year in the UK -- and every one is an tragedy. But only a few of those are of L, G, B or T youngsters, not further broken down and not necessarily seen as a contributing factor.

For the US, suicides of L, G, B or T youth are about 1.5 times those for other youth. So yes, it's raised, but is similar to patterns for autistic young people, is not necessarily higher in trans youngsters than in LGB youngsters, and it's nothing like the levels suggested by the 'thinking about it' rates, thank goodness.

And it still doesn't make males female. How could it, however sorry one might feel for distressed young people?

@AlexaAmbidextra is blood worse than faeces then? Or would you want someone washing their hands in the toilet too?

NKFell. Do you come out of the toilet with your hands covered in shit then?

At work we have a 'men's toilet' and a 'women's and guests toilet'.

That is so wrong. Men can use a single sex facility but women have to share with men? Fuck that!

'I think you’ll find that capillary/venous blood isn’t loaded with bacteria like menstrual blood is.'

God women are just dirty and gross aren't they

Really the religions/societies that call for segregation of menstruating women are bang on the money. It's utterly revolting.

I fundamentally disagree with so much of what you’re saying, I don’t know where to begin.

You assume this movement has been more successful because it is led by men. I counter that by saying that it is happening against a larger backdrop of more acceptance for people to live their lives as they want to. The world is more accepting, so it makes sense that any rights struggle will gain ground quicker these days.

You ignore the part of the trans population that is born female.

I don’t believe that male born trans have the same level of power and influence as men. I don’t believe most men would include male-born trans within their group (just as I don’t believe many men accept gay men).

I never accused you or anyone else of being man haters so you don’t need to defend yourself.

I don’t agree that making loos communal increases danger to women - and upthread I have shared a study that supports my view.

I have been very clear that I am talking about same sex loos - I am not in favour of making all spaces mixed sex at all.

I am very aware that the experiences and needs of people are very different and I don’t believe that a born-female has the same needs as a trans woman. But I do know that discrimination more often than not leads to mental health problems - so I am in favour of reducing discrimination for everyone.

All your time complaining about the wrong type of feminists diminishes what you could be doing against the real enemies who are passing legislation controlling women.

But then, that’s exactly what they want you to do.

'The world is more accepting'

Is it? The world?

Seems to be going backwards fast in large parts of it. Or still not very far ahead in the first place.

I'm gob smacked at that assertion.

Depends on your definition of progress Menu. We clearly have different opinions on what progress is.

Just now the death penalty has been reintroduced for homosexuality in Brunei. Abortion rights under attack USA, and parts of Europe. Women and girls still killed all over the place for stepping out of line.

Are you serious?

Or when you say the world, do you mean a small part of it?

All your time complaining about the wrong type of feminists diminishes what you could be doing against the real enemies who are passing legislation controlling women

No, as I said above it is the idea that feminism based on biological sex being the axis of oppression of women is exclusionary and bigoted that undermines efforts to safeguard sex based rights such as abortion.

@AlexaAmbidextra I have 4 children, I can confirm I have had shit on my hands and washed my hands in a basin. You mentioned 'microscopic' and microscopic fecal matter is all over the place, I'm sure you know this and are just being facetious/confrontational. Saying menstrual blood is 'loaded with bacteria' is reinforcing strange misogynistic stereotypes. Women on their period are not 'unclean', if that's what you're getting at. If they drink cows milk they won't poison the herd either.

Happy seriously?

I'm not sure I get you. No I don't think imposing death penalty for homosexuality is progress.

What are you on about.

Yanbu.. at my uni there are actual signs in the ladies telling women not to challenge men in the ladies if they feel uncomfortable ...as they have every right to be there. Fuming !

' I don’t believe most men would include male-born trans within their group (just as I don’t believe many men accept gay men).'

Work on this then rather than saying oh men don't want them so the women can have them, they won't mind.

'I have been very clear that I am talking about same sex loos - I am not in favour of making all spaces mixed sex at all.'

Well, you're transphobic then.

Also, you have a line, but it's in a different place.

Your place is right for you, other people's place is right for them. You don't get to tell others they are wrong, same as you don't accept those who day mix prisons etc are right.

As for why, a study in the Lancet a few years ago linked the increased prevalence of mental health issues with the discrimination trans people experience.

Could you post a link, for this, manners? I'd like to read that. Just the author(s) and title will do if you don't have a link and I should be able to find it.

Do you know of any studies regarding discrimination against women or LGB people and mental health? That might be something useful to compare it with.

What sort of discrimination do you think trans people might be experiencing? Is it different from that faced by women, or LGB people, or of the same type? I agree that we should be working against discrimination for all these groups, particularly if it is impacting on their mental health. But we need to know exactly what is going on and how best to help all these groups. Pretending that people can change sex, and then allowing male-bodied people into women's spaces, is unlikely to help women, so we need to find another solution.

I'd also argue that pretending people can change sex is a poor strategy both for transgender people and everyone else.

In the uk, suicide attempts amongst young trans people are 27%, 89% have seriously considered it and 72% have def harmed (all stats for trans). Same stats for overall trans community in UK are 48% suicide attempt / 84% considered it / 55% have been diagnosed with depression.

Can you post a link to the source for this as well?

That's it *Menu', I don't see why a problem with men suddenly has to be dealt with by women.

Do you know, I tried the whole 'rinse your cup with a bottle over the toilet' and made a right mess - water everywhere. So after that, I would quickly rinse the cup in the flush (yes, gross I know but easier than getting a bottle out with bloody hands, which I then had to rinse in the sink anyway). I'd then go to the sink and wash the cup and my hands and the sink with hot soapy water.
I didn't feel great about it, but I hoped the women around me would understand the difficulties of dealing with a heavy period.

It's great to see posters again bringing up the fact that women can only complain about singel sex spaces being compromised if we can prove we are in actual danger. Our privacy and comfort are irrelevant, other peoples' feelings are more important.
Which is nice.

The world is more accepting, so it makes sense that any rights struggle will gain ground quicker these days.

So how do you explain the erosion of women's rights, manners? Abortion rights in the US for example, or women's right to women-only spaces in much of the western world etc etc

@oldcrone

www.stonewall.org.uk/sites/default/files/trans_stats.pdf - stats and sources within

www.researchgate.net/profile/Tecelli_Dominguez-Martinez/publication/305680325_Removing_transgender_identity_from_the_classification_of_mental_disorders_A_Mexican_field_study_for_ICD-11/links/5b030980a6fdccf9e4f75f7b/Removing-transgender-identity-from-the-classification-of-mental-disorders-A-Mexican-field-study-for-ICD-11.pdf

As for the best way to deal with the issue, I don’t know. But I think treating them with some respect is a good start.

I don’t believe that male born trans have the same level of power and influence as men. I don’t believe most men would include male-born trans within their group (just as I don’t believe many men accept gay men).

Someone else has already said this, but it's worth repeating. This is a male problem for men to sort out. It's absolutely nothing to do with women, but some women might be willing to help find a solution, as soon as they stop saying that the only solution is to treat male people who are trans the same as actual women.

I'd also argue that pretending people can change sex is a poor strategy both for transgender people and everyone else.

Yes.

I would have thought that most workplaces were able to designate a single closed room loo, of the sort you get in Costas or Starbucks as the "accessible" loo, as a gender-neutral loo. While they are at it, they could designate some of the current male loos as female loos as we need more of them.

In the last place I worked we had gender neutral loos but they were the enclosed room type with their own sink so no worries about having men peering under cubicle walls. As I said in my previous post, I have never seen anything like the set-up the OP describes.

Thanks for the links, manners. I'll have a proper look at the Stonewall one in a moment, but the Lancet one looks like one that the Scottish Government used in their GRA consultation to back up the same argument you're making.

In one sample of 500 transgender women in Mexico City, 60% had supported themselves through sex work, at least 11% had lived on the street, 25% had been in prison, and a high proportion were HIV positive.

I think if you took a sample of 500 women with the same profile, you might find quite a high prevalence of mental health problems.

@menuplant

Well yes, obviously I was referring to the part of the world where trans rights have supposedly gained so much ground so quickly. It was a response to ‘thoughtinthedark’ or whatever their name is, but I forgot to tag them.

As for being transphobic because i don’t agree with all spaces being co-ed, ok. Wevs. I worry less about what I’m labelled and more about what I think is right.

I’m getting attacked from all angles for my stance on this - so I’m going to go do something more fun like grate my kneecaps, but OP, YABU for complaining about walking up some stairs to get to the loo.