To not feel happy with gender neutral toilets at work?

[BalletBunting]

My company has recently relabelled all toilets on my floor as 'gender neutral'. As well as being rather confused as to what the need is for them (there are no trans people at my work as far as I'm aware) I don't like them, and I would prefer to keep the ladies loo as is. The nearest women's toilets is 3 floors up now!

I don't really feel comfortable going to the loo knowing that there are men in there but I don't really know how to bring this up and with who. I work for a large media company, fairly young/progressive and I don't want to cause trouble for myself.

There was also absolutely no consultation regarding the change. If anyone has been in a similar situation and managed to come to a different solution? Or AIBU and should drop it?

Ask yourself where this push for mixed sex spaces has sprung from all of a sudden.

Toilets again - desire for privacy is 'transphobic' apparently
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3598546-Toilets-again-desire-for-privacy-is-transphobic-apparently

Thread about a group of US students who complained that having full length walls and doors in the mixed sex uni toilets sprang from a desire for privacy and dignity and thus was transphobia.

It isn't from any man I know or from any woman I know. It's as far from any man I know's radar.

“Specifically the floor-to-ceiling dividers for all-gender restrooms, they [the University] want them to be much … longer than for men’s and women’s restroom, and we take this as a sign of transphobia because … this basically comes out of a want for privacy and an all-gender restroom, and that want for privacy comes from a fear of trans and nonbinary people” said a student spokesperson.

Eresh, that is so fucked up

I mentioned on the other thread, it reminds me of a US army guy who said that women forced to shower with MTFs in their living quarters wouldn't be permitted to shower in a towel because it was "othering" to the MTF trans people.

And another anecdote from a MNer where at least one MTF in a changing room complained of transphobia as women were getting changed under a towel or putting their clothes on over their swimsuit.

How invalidated they must feel.

So, most women want single sex toilets. Men are unlikely to be pushing for mixed sex toilets at work so it appears to be the bosses who want mixed sex toilets because they don't want the hassle of dealing with transgender men and women.

Transgender men and women want to use the single sex toilets for the sex they identify with. They need to accept that you can not change biological sex. Some trans people have not had gender re-assignment but just self-identity as the opposite sex to their birth sex.

I would feel very uncomfortable with a man who self- identifies as a woman sharing toilets, just as I would a bological man. Just because they see themselves as a woman or want to be a woman, they are still a man leven if they wear ladies' clothing, a wig and make-up.

Men are unlikely to be pushing for mixed sex toilets at work so it appears to be the bosses who want mixed sex toilets because they don't want the hassle of dealing with transgender men and women.

YY I think that's generally the case. Or the LGBTQ group within the organisation request them.

In which case I think I give up. We are all arguing over something somebody thought somebody else wanted because they thought somebody else might think they were transphobic? Shall we all just go to bed and agree on common sense tomorrow?

Again and again.

The feelings of a small subset of males who are uncomfortable using the men’s toilets are of paramount importance, so important that companies and organisations everywhere are completely overhauling their whole toilet provision.

The feelings of the majority of women who want to retain single sex toilets are of no consequence whatsoever and really women are bloody annoying for even thinking their feelings should matter at all.

Why oh why, if all feelings are equal, are some feelings more equal than others?

Mannersmaketh (no, not asleep; in a fucking coma, cupcake) thinks we should pander to a group of marginalised males because it’s “nice”; yet fails completely to see how utterly shitty it is to ride roughshod over marginalised females.

But then, if you’re in denial about the fact that, by definition, only men can be “transwomen”, then you’re inevitably going to be in denial about a heap of other stuff too. All that cognitive dissonance. Gotta be a hell of a PITA.

Ereshkigal 🍷

Talking

Good post.

That seems the crux of it. And rides above every woman and man's feelings on it. How do we keep everyone happy?

There is no way of keeping both women who want privacy from male people and those occasional male people who actively want to violate women's boundaries happy, is there? It's zero sum.

I don’t have much interest in keeping narcissistic misogynists who want to erode women’s boundaries happy, personally.

I’m more interested in how we fight back against this encroachment on our apparently fragile, hard won rights.

Great minds, Eresh 😂

OP yanbu to feel as you do, plenty agree with you, but whether your voice will be heard is anyone’s guess.

For myself I don't mind unisex loo's. My own thoughts are that toliets should be used by the sex the individual identifies with, e.g. a male to female trans just uses the women's loo.

There are however women who find mixed toliets incredibly difficult for a number of reasons. For example, my sister had a horrendous sexual assualt many years ago. She is completely unable to even enter a loo with a male cleaner. The thought of someone the opposite sex being near her whilst she feels exposed (floor to ceiling door or not) is terrifying for her. Her work place changed to unisex due to 2 transgender females (who stated they would prefer to just use female toliets). No allowances were made for the women or men who felt uncomfortable with the change , or the feelings of the women who had changed gender.

In a vast workplace unisex is now the only option, I assume to be seen as an equal workplace when in fact it caused the opposite effect.

My sister ended up leaving her job purely due to this, it seems extreme but she has never been able to be in shared changing rooms, toliets or communal showers in the pool .

Bettyspants now you see if your sister had had the good sense and foresight to be born male and was now “identifying as a woman”, she would be listened to, accommodated at every turn, and centred in the fight for “women’s rights”.

As it is, being that she’s just a boring old XX female, none of that applies. She is being silenced, called a terrible transphobic bigot, not accommodated and not centred at all in some branches of so-called “feminism”. She had to leave her job, FFS.

Sorry if it sounds like I’m being flippant, I’m not really; I’m actually horrified by your sister's story - 💐 for her. I’m truly sorry she’s been so traumatised and that she’s been re-victimised by this hideous chain of events.

And I think this is a glaring example of how vulnerable, marginalised WOMEN are being made to feel a lot more than uncomfortable, and actually excluded from what were formerly women’s spaces and even public life due to this male-centric fuckery that passes for progress.

So sorry.

Betty that is really fucking tough. I sympathise. One of my children has a total terror of male doctors after a very bad dental experience when she was little. Her fear is accommodated without question when we are in my country. In the UK, the surgery seems to rejoice in telling us only male doctors are available and she needs to deal with it. This is a bit off-topic, but I know how impotent and furious you feel when your loved one's psychological wellbeing is trampled over by this bullshit.

You realise it’s not just mtf trans people who have the toilet issue? Oh yeah sorry we’re just meant to blame the men...

@boobirdblue I don’t want to share toilets with male strangers because it makes me feel uncomfortable and somewhat vulnerable. I don’t want to share a toilet with male colleagues either and after a quick poll, they feel uncomfortable at the thought too.

@HernameisGio why assume that supporting women’s rights is against men? I have no problem with mtf trans people using women’s toilets. If men have a problem with them using ‘their’ toilets you need to argue with men.

Ha that was a typo and a half, should read ‘I have no problem FTM people using women’s toilets’.

@boobirdblue I don’t want to share toilets with male strangers because it makes me feel uncomfortable and somewhat vulnerable. I don’t want to share a toilet with male colleagues either and after a quick poll, they feel uncomfortable at the thought too.

Very insightful, I now fully understand "you feel uncomfortable".

It's very difficult to have reasoned conversations and understanding with people who don't explain why a situation causes an issue.

I'm sure it'll be I don't have to explain why, it just does next. 🙄

She doesn't have to explain why. She said she feels vulnerable. Why not respect her feelings?