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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be deeply disappointed in John Cleese

999 replies

drspouse · 29/05/2019 23:06

I have no idea if this is typical but he just tweeted that London isn't an English city any more
What is it then pray tell? What's not English about it??

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drspouse · 30/05/2019 09:55

Since when are the two mutually exclusive??

You've misread what I wrote.
He could be saying that nobody in London speaks English. That would be incorrect. (Many of them don't have it as their first language but that is a different matter)
So, therefore, he's using some other definition of "English" which I can only take to mean "is not white".

Mookie apart from those who come to the UK as teenagers, by the time 4 and 5 year olds are in secondary school they will be speaking English just fine, but will be enriched by their fluent second language. No need to panic. Speaking language A before school and language B at school is a perfectly normal situation world wide.

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drspouse · 30/05/2019 09:56

Ah bother.

"he's using some other definition of "English" which I can only take to mean "IS white".

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CaptSkippy · 30/05/2019 09:57

I here a lot on this thread about debates being "shouted down". What do you mean by that? As far as I can see everyone is able to express an opinion here. So who is getting shouted down? Or do you mean that you "feel" shouted down just for having people criticising your views they way you criticise theirs?

I can only look at a town I lived in for 11 years and left 15 years ago. That town has changed so much that I now have trouble finding my way. That is what happens. Everything on Earth is in a constant state of change. No amount of romanticising the past or believing your memories of a place are fixed will prevent change from happening.

Everything constantly changes and so do you.

Pk37 · 30/05/2019 10:02

Oh another one who is outraged by something ..
He’s right , I’m a Londoner and tbh, London feels like any other European city. It’s not distinctly English anymore

Pointless2 · 30/05/2019 10:03

They say Londoners don't speak to anyone, that's because no one speak English! Was horrible living there!

Simply not true. Would be funny if it wasn’t so offensive.

RosaWaiting · 30/05/2019 10:03

I wouldn't rush to assume Cleese is talking about skin colour.

Pk37 · 30/05/2019 10:03

All the shops and restaurants are the same across Europe , not much individuality anymore .
It’s nothing to do with race ffs

RosaWaiting · 30/05/2019 10:05

Mookie "I teach 4 and 5 year olds who have been born and raised in England who barely speak a word of English. This is ridiculous to me and displays a worrying lack of integration."

agree.

CassianAndor · 30/05/2019 10:07

The first response to this tweet is that 41% of London's population are foreign born, which would make it England's least English city.

That just sounds like a statement of fact. There is a smaller percentage of English-born residents in London than in other English cities.

Pointless2 · 30/05/2019 10:07

Those 4 and 5 year olds then go on to become fluent speakers of English. Who have the benefit of knowing another language and straddling two cultures.

What exactly is the issue here?

drspouse · 30/05/2019 10:10

41% of London's population are foreign born, which would make it England's least English city.

You can be foreign born but speak English and have a British passport.

But if you don't think someone who was born abroad can be British, I suppose that yes, there are too many people who are too forrin.

All the shops and restaurants are the same across Europe , not much individuality anymore .
It’s nothing to do with race ffs

I find that London has more independent and fewer chain shops and restaurants compared to most other big British cities.

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drspouse · 30/05/2019 10:11

Pointless my point exactly.

Children should be spoken to by parents in the parents' native language to ensure they hear rich vocabulary. Not in the parents' less fluent English.

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LadyWithLapdog · 30/05/2019 10:11

“When one is tired of London, one is tired of life.”

Move out of London to somewhere with a more genteel pace of life, where your mind isn’t stretched and your joints and neurons get a rest.

RosaWaiting · 30/05/2019 10:14

OP "Children should be spoken to by parents in the parents' native language to ensure they hear rich vocabulary."

you would hate my family. "should" be spoken to. Hmm. Very judgey.

LadyWithLapdog · 30/05/2019 10:16

RosaWaiting - of course it’s better to learn a language at a young age, under 7 or so. Not everyone manages it but it’s the best way to learn it.

Thymeout · 30/05/2019 10:19

My family have lived in or around Deptford for 150 years. My great grand parents were both 'immigrants' - one walked from Devon to get a job and the other was a Jewish refugee from Eastern Europe. (No - hardly any cockneys were descended from Huguenots. Most of them came to London from other parts of the UK during the industrial revolution - economic migrants. Remember Danny Boyle's brilliant Olympics opening ceremony.

I love London. It always gives me a buzz when I go into the centre. But even I have noticed that the pace of change has increased hugely over the last few years. It's not racial diversity - we're used to that and ime experience the non-white Londoners I taught in Lewisham avoid central London. Some of them had never been north of the river. A trip to the Globe had them looking warily over their shoulders.

I think the big difference is white people who look English, talking foreign. Coffee shops, restaurants almost fully staffed by European migrants. The food has changed for the better, but the only places that serve traditional British food are tourist traps. (£15 for fish and chips in a Central London pub the other day.)

My cousin comes over from Canada to visit twice a year and every single time I'll get a John Cleese-type comment. She's not a racist. She just has rosy-tinted memories of growing up here in the 50s and 60s.

Like John Cleese.

AlexaAmbidextra · 30/05/2019 10:20

And I’m not a Londoner but I lived there 30 years ago in a rough bit of Dalston that seems a lot nicer now. I don’t live there now but I visit a lot. It’s a fantastic place to visit and the people I know who live there love it.

Oh yes. Gentrification. Such a good thing. You can get 100 types of organic coffee, eat ethically sourced avocado and quinoa on artisanal bread served by bearded hipsters charging extortionate amounts. Just a pity that those families who were born and brought up there have been priced out and can’t afford £1m plus houses.

presumedinnocence · 30/05/2019 10:24

John Cleese is just stating the obvious. Those in an uproar about it confuse me. What is so wrong about pointing out the truth?

I’ve travelled a lot over the past 30 years and the world, not just London, has changed so quickly.

It’s sad to see the identities and characters of whole countries steadily erased in a sea of encroaching ‘diversity’ and capitalism.

I remember backpacking and Interrailing in the late 80s, when European and Asian countries still had distinct identities. It was exciting to cross the border from Malaysia into Singapore, or France into Spain and to change currency and to see an entirely different culture in such close proximity. Almost all such distinctions are being steadily vapourised - perhaps because it’s easier for multinationals to make big profits if all consumers are on the same page, lapping up the same merchandise, without borders or barriers to trade. Within a few generations, they predict, we will all look the same too - like Brazilians, apparently.

In the past year I’ve travelled throughout Europe, the US, Australia and parts of Australia and the rising homogeneity really struck me more than ever. Everywhere I went there were pink, grey and gold or faux industrial ‘fasionable’ interiors, cafes serving matcha lattes and smashed avocado and the same brands and products advertised throughout.
People see this as a triumph of diversity but to me, it’s depressing.

hilbobaggins · 30/05/2019 10:24

I here a lot on this thread about debates being "shouted down". What do you mean by that?

I work in Higher Education, a sector that is obsessed by diversity and inclusion. I do not express any of the questions I would like to raise on this topic because I would be concerned about being labelled racist simply for questioning the ideology. That kind of label ends careers. It has nothing to do with fearing a robust debate. I would welcome the debate, but it just does not happen in any kind of meaningful way.

RosaWaiting · 30/05/2019 10:24

Lady that's got nothing to do with what I said.

drspouse · 30/05/2019 10:24

Rosa all the research suggests that speaking your home language is best for children who hear another language at school:

ealresources.bell-foundation.org.uk/parents/speaking-your-home-language

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Letthemysterybe · 30/05/2019 10:25

The major cities of the world have been culturally diverse for hundreds of years. There are many non English people in London, but that doesn’t make it a non English city and that isn’t anything new.

RosaWaiting · 30/05/2019 10:26

OP what is a "home" language?

Oh I could cry. This is how it ends up that non-white people aren't seen as English.

RosaWaiting · 30/05/2019 10:26

I was born and raised here, why isn't English my "home" language?!

supermommyof4 · 30/05/2019 10:28

So he speaks the truth and everyone loses their minds and gets offended. Oh do grow up people!! He is entitled to an opinion as is everyone else.