To be deeply disappointed in John Cleese

[drspouse]

I have no idea if this is typical but he just tweeted that London isn't an English city any more
What is it then pray tell? What's not English about it??

Presumably your ‘home’ language is the language spoken at home?

@UndoingItAgain

Are you saying all white English people are the same? I hate this assumption that living in a mono cultural area is dull or boring and we're all racists. White english people may not be diverse in terms of skin colour, religion etc but we are diverse in other ways. Why are English people so keen to do ourselves down and declare us boring and backward?

This in spades. ^

Funny thing is, if ethnic minorities want to live in an area that is 'diverse' and has many of their own culture in it, (and most of them do;) the liberal-left don't bat an eyelid.

When white people prefer to live in an area where it's less diverse, they are accused of being bigoted, xenophobic, racist, small-minded, little-Englander, Daily Mail Reader, thick Brexity gammon!

You can't cherry pick your liberal-left opinions to suit your agenda you know. It can't be OK for ethnic minorities to choose areas of high diversity, (with a high percentage of their own culture,) but RACIST for white people to choose areas less diverse!

But I suppose the liberal-left will say that the ethnic minorities want to live in an area with a lot of people of their culture, because if they moved to a predominantly white area, all the horrid, nasty, racist white people will bully them and drive them out. Because that is what all white people do apparently.

I live in a village with about 700 people, (280 households,) and it consists about 240 white/British born households, and around 40 households that are Chinese, South Korean, Indian, Namibian, South African, and Sri-Lankan. There are also several Polish, Romanian, and Ukrainian families. Some of them go to the local Church, the hobby groups and the village, the walking group, the cycling group, and the art group. In addition, their kids go to the local primary school.

There has not been ONE occasion of racism or bigotry or hatred towards any of them; not at the Church, or the school, or any of the community groups. Indeed, nowhere in the village has any of them had any issues. As much as the liberal-left would like to think it, most white people are NOT racist and bigoted.

If anything, you will find racist white people are usually the less bright, 'low-rent' types in the run down areas of some medium sized towns with rough sink estates, and run-down areas. The ones who are more likely to support UKIP. (There is a town 20 miles from me with people like this.)

However, these same towns (including this one I am referring to,) have big settlements of other cultures... and this particular town (20 miles from me) is about 20% ethnic minority. Some of this 20% have the same bigoted, intolerant views against white people, as certain types of white people have against them!

It's not just white people who can be racist, and I am sick to death of the saviours of the minorities squealing RACIST at white people who don't fall into line with the liberal-left's way of thinking. Saying anyone who doesn't toe the line, and dares to say they prefer to live in a less diverse area is a big fat racist. AND, as I said, they NEVER say anything about ethnic minorities who want to stay in an area where more of their own race and culture live...

I won't even argue with these liberal-left types now. Can't be arsed. You just get shouted down as racist and bigoted if you DARE think differently to them. There are a few of them on mumsnet, and twitter is littered with them.

As a number of posters have said (in agreement with John Cleese,) and also a number of people I know; London is NOT what it used to be, it no longer feels English, and they are sad that the London they once knew and loved, is dead.

And the liberal left PC brigade can continue to shout 'what's WRONG with London? and 'OK then, tell me what is NOT English about it,' and 'it's perfectly English in the part of London I live in! What is your problem?!' However, nothing is going to change the fact that many people KNOW it's not the same as it used to be.

Finally, as someone said upthread, it's the liberal left shutting you down for your views, and the fact you cannot say fuckall without being accused of being a bigot and a racist, and every damn thing having to be inclusive (even favouring other cultures sometimes,) that has lead to Brexit. Like it or not, it's true.

Agree with John Cleese 100%. London is not an English city anymore, it’s a multicultural city. He didn’t say anything negative and he wasn’t racist.
I’m from south London and can assure you that the area I am from is no longer predominantly English.
I cannot understand the uproar over this.

what is a "home" language?
Did you read the link?

Aren't cockneys themselves the descendants of French Huguenot settlers anyway? (Oh shock horror 😀)

Oh do educate yourself. Yes, there was a mass Huguenot influx into the city and East London in the 17th century. How does that make every Londoner from these areas a descendant? And btw, your use of the word cockney is incorrect. A cockney is defined as someone who was born within the sound of Bow Bells. This refers to St Mary le Bow in Cheapside. Nothing to do with the east end.

John Cleese is referring to culture, not race.

When our mayor tells us that ‘diversity is our strength’ - why is it necessarily a strength? It’s not a strength if people have vastly differing cultural norms and have nothing in common, no shared way of life, no shared values or history, but just happen to live alongside each other, not always happily.

We never look at other cultures and bemoan the fact that they’re not diverse enough. When I studied in Japan, I only came across two English-speakers the whole year I was there. They’re keen to preserve their unique culture and yet we don’t accuse them of racism or xenophobia. I didn’t think that what they needed was a few more Greek restaurants! It shouldn’t be so hard to have a conversation about the issue of culture. What was so wrong with Britain or British culture that we thought we needed to change it?

London has changed enormously over my lifetime, and I’m not thirty yet. It hurts people when communities that they love disappear.

No, I didn't read the link.

I just resent this idea that because my parents speak another language, it must be my "home" language, when they came to England and raised their children in England.

Rosa what are you on about?

My DH and I lived with our eldest in four different countries. English was/is our home language, i.e. the language we spoke in the family. It is our native language. It is therefore my daughter's mother tongue though she has had significant exposure at kindergarten and on the street at L2 and L3.

Your home language can be any language.

Isabella "We never look at other cultures and bemoan the fact that they’re not diverse enough."

that's my feeling as well.

Exposure to L2 and L3*

Has London ever been a non multicultural city? I thought it was founded by the Romans because they could make it a port, so it’s logical that there have always been people from other parts of the world in London.

Rivers apologies.

it's years of pent-up rage about the fact that I "should" speak my parents' language.

But why do any of the following have to be "not English":
Not being born in England (you move here, you take British citizenship, you are now English)?
Not having English as your first or only language (lots of English people are bilingual, if you speak English and your neighbourhood uses English as its lingua franca [sorry] then surely it's an English neighbourhood?)
Not being white?
Not having parents that were born in England (you're born here, you are English)?
Having shops, services, restaurants that cater for cultures other than "White British" (if they are shops and services that are IN England surely they are an "English shop"?)

Why does having all this make London "less English"?
It's a very narrow definition of English.
As many PPs have pointed out, we are a multicultural nation, surely the very definition of being English is to embrace a variety of cultures?

Many other European capitals are a lot less multicultural. So this IS something distinctive about London - but it's a feature of England as a whole.

John Cleese is just stating the obvious. Those in an uproar about it confuse me. What is so wrong about pointing out the truth?

But that's the thing, people in this thread are interpreting the tweet in lots of different ways - "Englishness" as culture, as race, as language, as positive, as negative.

Without any context, just posting some kind of "factual statement" doesn't really mean anything. What point is he trying to make? What discussion does he want to provoke? This is what I can't get my head around.

Rosa my DH is very disappointed that his dad didn't teach him his language.

It's not DH's fault - his dad was trying to learn English - and at that time nobody knew it's good for children to start with their parents' language even if that's not English. He tells people it's just that period in history was a bit ignorant. I've met other people (adults younger than me so now in their 30s - DH is in his 60s) whose parents were told the same. I don't think any of them have years of pent up rage - their parents were doing what they were told, at the time, was best.

Oh Rosa, I think I get you. My sister in law doesn't speak the traditional language of her people, and hates it when people assume her parents taught her it. In fact, they worked so much that she really got little exposure to it, unfortunately, and she now only speaks the dominant language of the country (English).

Her name is in the parents' language and she is very visibly of their ethnicity, so people address her in the language all the time and apparently judge her for not knowing it, which is cruel I think.

OP - I think we are hopelessly misunderstanding each other.

Wow great post @crazyasafox especially your last paragraph. I was part of the “liberal left” until a couple of years ago and boy is it a huge awakening when you see what’s really going on.

We are a multicultural nation, surely the very definition of being English is to embrace a variety of cultures

Then we’re nowhere, are we? We’re nothing. We have no distinct culture of our own worth preserving- we’re just a place that anyone can live according to their own values and traditions. And it just isn’t true. Historically speaking, it’s nonsense. Immigration and population size for most of our history were remarkably static. The last big influx of refugees were the Huguenots, who were Protestants.

@crazyasafox

You nailed it. Agree with every word you wrote.

He’s an idiot. I had no respect for him after he bagged a few places in Australia and NZ.

crazy I hear all of that.

when we were visiting another part of England, my sister said it was bad that we'd not seen any other non-whites. I said to her "are you REALLY complaining that a country that's historically white has too many white people in it?"

it's batshit.

The last big influx of refugees were the Huguenots, who were Protestants.

The last big influx? And the Jews and Bengalis?

I'm not English...

As an outsider who spent a lot of time living in England, I really love English culture, esp. humour, theatre, film literature and music, but also art, football, cricket and some TV. And the many cheerfully insane friends I made. And the wonderful idioms.

To deny that there is a distinct, unique and fascinating English culture would be more than a bit daft.

Having shops, services, restaurants that cater for cultures other than "White British" (if they are shops and services that are IN England surely they are an "English shop"?)

I live in a multi-cultural street in London. Yes, the shops that cater to other cultures are technically English shops as they are in England, but when a lot of their signs are in Polish or Turkish, and they have types signs up on the window asking for staff in that language, not English, it is a shop more representative of their culture, and many of them don't want English people working there.