To be deeply disappointed in John Cleese

[drspouse]

I have no idea if this is typical but he just tweeted that London isn't an English city any more
What is it then pray tell? What's not English about it??

Finborough I agree... it used to make me angry, now it just makes me sad.

61% of London residents are British born, so it is still an English ( he should of course have said British) city

Written by someone who does not understand very much at all.

Cleese specifically said English, and it was deliberate. There is no "should have said" about it.
British-born people do not necessarily express English culture - though of course it depends from which part of the world their parents came from, I suppose.

Yes power isn't the only thing that matters.

Not sure children aren't interested in it, but if you ignore power you ignore the necesaary downsides tgat must come with it. You don't conquer by reason. That's the point. And tgat is glossed over then introduced wholesale later on and seems unpalatable by then.

Although I 100% agree about judging the past by modern standards of ethics etc.

You don't conquer by reason. That's the point. And tgat is glossed over then introduced wholesale later on and seems unpalatable by then

VERY good point, Catherine.

61% of London residents are British born, so it is still an English ( he should of course have said British) city

Why should he ‘of course’ have said British? Britain and English are not synonymous. Konstantin Kisin made that point - if over half of the population were Scottish people, London would no longer be ‘English’. It would be British, or Scottish, but not English.

He should have said British because its the capital of more than just England. Its the capital of the UK. Therefore it pulls in people from all over the country.

London also makes it money by being a centre of international trade and has done for centuries, it has always been multicutural.

The majority of the population are UK born, the % of British born in London has only fallen by about 10% since 1991, whilst the % of the population that is white British has fallen by about 14%, White Brits however are still by far the largest ethnic grouping in the city.

"Written by someone who does not understand very much at all."

I understand very clearly. You are trying to make out that a powerful majority are actually an oppressed minority, go read what Umberto Eco would say about that.

English ( actually British) culture is dominant, both in this country, and a major cultural force across the world, yet you are playing this like it is under some kind of siege, it isn't.

yet you are playing this like it is under some kind of siege, it isn't

Well, that’s the debate at hand. I disagree with you, and I think it is.

Just to extend that looking at demographic trends, the white British population of London has been steadily falling at about the same rate since the 1960s.

"I disagree with you, and I think it is."

You are wrong, and only have anecdotal evidence to prove your points.

As I said, British born make up the majority of the population of London, and white Brits are the largest ethnic group by a long way (about 3 times as large as any other group).

London makes its money from being an international city, you can't complain when people from different nations live there.

A knowledge of the basics tenets and stories of Christianity and the other major world faiths should be part of a rounded education. Thinking about what I think English culture is- well, kids still do a bit of Shakespeare at school. Enough people know enough about Shakespeare for a sitcom about him to have been recommissioned twice. There is still Radiios 4 and 3. British pop music is still incredibly popular worldwide. Ditto fashion and art. What are we losing?

What is the difference between British and English culture? All I can think of is sports, foods and humour.

A knowledge of the basics tenets and stories of Christianity and the other major world faiths should be part of a rounded education.

And I bet it is - in private schools. How else can posh boys be taught how to play the mob ?

State schools main role is teach people their place. Anything else isn't a bonus. It's an aberration.

(Have we reached peak cynic yet ?)

British born make up the majority of the population of London

Correct, British-born of foreign parents. Cleese was talking about feeling that London is not ENGLISH. These two words have different meanings and are not interchangeable.

white Brits are the largest ethnic group by a long way (about 3 times as large as any other group). English ( actually British) culture is dominant, both in this country, and a major cultural force across the world

We are back to square one. What is British culture then, because there are many British-born people (parents are: Polish, Russian, Asian, West Indian, Chinese) who follow their parents' cultures and attitudes more strongly.

I

London hasn't been ENGLISH since it became the capital of the UK and of an Empire.

In fact the Royal family are a great example of this, of German descent, but only picked because the Scottish line of succession became extinct ( or was Catholic).

British Culture, is a mix of the many other cultures that have been brought here over the years. Look at the "English" language, a mix of Dutch Fresian, Norse, French, Latin, Gaelic,. Fish and Chips was brought here by Jewish iimgrants from Spain and Portugal. The Yorkshire pudding is similar to many dishes found in the Netherlands.

We have a culture in the UK, British/English culture is by far the most dominant and it is not under threat because we have allowed other cultures to become part of our national landscape.

we have allowed other cultures to become part of our national landscape

What about any culture that does not want to become a part of our national landscape, and continues to protest that they want to be separate with their own laws and their own way of dealing with matters?

Can you give me an example of a culture where the majority of participants want to do that?

“continues to protest that they want to be separate with their own laws and their own way of dealing with matters?”

Well they can’t have their own laws can they?

What is the difference between British and English culture? All I can think of is sports, foods and humour.

Surely laughing is a universal human experience ?

Culture is forever changing anyway.

We would claim the Beatles as English culture, but essentially the Beatles music has its roots in Black America.

Surely laughing is a universal human experience?

Yes, but there are differences in humour between cultures/ countries. Scottish humour is a bit different to English, some c/c have a more slapstick comedy etc

A knowledge of the basics tenets and stories of Christianity and the other major world faiths should be part of a rounded education.

And I bet it is - in private schools. How else can posh boys be taught how to play the mob ?

Cynical indeed!

You could also read a book about it.

London is the capital of the UK it is hardly surprising if Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish choose to live there.

I only spoke English until I was three years old. I was living in Spain, though. Then I learnt Spanish at pre school. That's how it works for many bilingual children. And we are perfectly integrated. Thanks.

Essentially the John Cleese argument is " Its not how I remember it and it should be".

But of course this means that people want all the benefits of London being an international city, without it actually being one.

Essentially the John Cleese argument is " Its not how I remember it and it should be".

He'd whinge soon enough if the London of the 1960s and 1970s was resurrected. Well, he would if he actually lived there.

But of course this means that people want all the benefits of London being an international city, without it actually being one.

Cake and eat it ?! surely not.