To be deeply disappointed in John Cleese

[drspouse]

I have no idea if this is typical but he just tweeted that London isn't an English city any more
What is it then pray tell? What's not English about it??

“My DD attends a school (not a church school) where all the events that happen in the winter term can't be called Christmas anything (fair, concert - even though the bloody concert takes place in a church!) because 'inclusion'
Are you absolutely sure this happened? Because the school is going against all sorts of policies and guidance.
Incidentally- we couldn’t have a Halloween party at our school and there was huge discussion about Harry Potter - because of Christians!

cassain... that makes a lot of sense. Woke whites seem far more likely to... oh shit now I need mulled wine and it's June. How dare you.

no - not at all. I loved NZ and that saddens me to hear that as that wasn't the impression I got at all. That's such a shame.

Sorry, didn't mean to offend about Oz ! I was, I'll admit, pretty ignorant about a lot of stuff before i went there to Australia and New Zealand. I can't believe I ever muddled the accents!

Bertrand yes, I'm sure - DD's been there for 5 years! And yes, it's because of Christians that Halloween can't be called that (though I'm a bloody Catholic and we always celebrated it and still do! I think this is evangelicals more than anyone. It's super-annoying (and I also think ever-so-slightly anti-Catholic)).

Well I feel sorry to have disabused you. My perspective is skewed by having Maaori family and jumping from a kohanga reo (language nest... Maaori school for little uns) to a snotty posh school for naice white girls where Maaori was not even a subject option. I am sure the people you met were genuine and lovely. 😘

Don't apologise - I'm sorry it's like that!

it's because of Christians that Halloween can't be called that

Call it All Hallows Eve then.

Or Samhain.

"We denigrate ourselves at every opportunity, hesitate to affirm the superiority of Western values, use the British Empire as a stick to beat ourselves with, we scorn our heritage and institutions and we’ve lost our faith. So what do we have to bring to the table?

Well said Isabella. The denigration began in schools imo several decades ago. Then the covert 'changers' in our society sneaked in and further reduced any pride a person might have in knowing they live in a country where there is due process. The bad elements of Britain's history were deliberately bigged up, and History was no longer taught in any meaningful and chronological way. But also somewhere along the line the measured way in which we thought and spoke were thrown out, instead favouring the screeching hysteria that requires a Baddie in every scenario.

In other words, state school education was dumbed down and young people made to carry the anger of what was done to "their people" 300 yrs ago - as if it was last year. More to say, but it's up to everyone to know the origins of how the British came to have the best law system in the world.

In other words, state school education was dumbed down and young people made to carry the anger of what was done to "their people" 300 yrs ago - as if it was last year

You contradict yourself. Why is ok to feel pride in my nation's achievements 300 years ago but not feel angry or regretful?.

Rhetorical question.

“Or Samhain.”

Not absolurely sure the Christians would go for that either........

Personally I will never accept the faith of Christianity, nor it being made part of our heritage and culture in the present at all, even ignoring its use of propping up a birth-based hierarchy. It''s dead. It was never rational,

OMG, this shows a devasting lack in understanding the connectedness of faith to culture. Magna Carta provided the foundation of English common law, all based on Judeo-Christian ethics. Not based on the Napoleonic system they have in France (which means you are guilty until you are found Not Guilty), not based on Mormonism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Islam etc.

If you do not know some history, then you will never understand who/what you are and how you came to be living how you live. You will never have a full sense of self.

hesitate to affirm the superiority of Western values

surely not a bad thing if they're not actually superior ? Anyway it seems we return to "what are Western values" ? And that's before we note that the UK makes a point of specifically rejecting a lot of "Western values" if they are French. Or German.

Some people put an awful lot of effort into trying to find ways to say "white" without reference to colour. It's almost like a parlour game. "Find as many ways to other someone without mentioning their skin". I could see it appearing on a racist version of "Taskmaster".

because the things that we should regret have been upped and the things that we should feel pride in have been downplayed?

Speaking as a white middle-class leftish person, I can't help but think a lot of this is down to white, middle-class, leftish people...

(Don't start me on History being taught non-chronologically. Drives me nuts!!! And you really can't learn this country's history without having a pretty good understanding of Christianity.)

OMG, this shows a devasting lack in understanding the connectedness of faith to culture. Magna Carta provided the foundation of English common law, all based on Judeo-Christian ethics

Excellent point

You contradict yourself. Why is ok to feel pride in my nation's achievements 300 years ago but not feel angry or regretful?

It is about being mature and looking at the bad parts of the early years of your country, accepting that bad was done but how well we got out of the mire and rectified a lot of wrongs. That's what I mean. Just as a parent usually cannot be an all-round good person, who may hold views opposite to yours, you accept the failings (and strengths) of the parent, put yourself into the circumstances they grew up in and ask yourself how differently would you have done things.

Virtually every country has committed a serious crime against another. No one is blameless.

because the things that we should regret have been upped and the things that we should feel pride in have been downplayed?
Have they though? I was in school 20 years ago not that long. We were taught British History in a very fact based way. I love British History. Absolutely love it. The difficulty I remember was being made to feel back then, was that I was contravening some sort of black code by doing so. But things were more polarised back then.

We never dwelled on the negatives except in a fact based way really. Closest thing to real critical dessimination and examination of history we did was WW1 and WW2.

My experience is anecdotal but I believe school children are being taught to think and examine historical facts more critically.

If you do not know some history

Everybody knows some history. That's part of the problem. It's like a fact buffet where you can pick what you like, leave what you don't, and tell everyone you've made a meal ....

Sorry shoukd have said

'I believe school children are being taught to think and examine historical facts more critically These days which drives the perception of them seeing history negatively? Perhaps?

Virtually every country has committed a serious crime against another. No one is blameless

Yes I agree broadly with your point. I think this could be fixed by a real study of ancient history. This is really glossed over in schools its shit really. They spebd ages looking at how Eyptians lived, not really how they and the other great civilizations amassed power (Persians, assyrians, babylonians, even greeks and romans) its all this is how they lived etc here's some pretty hieroglyphics la la la, not the horrid realities involved in world dominion so that by the time you jump straight to the British Empire the barbous things appear more incongrous and grotesque. Instead of well, actually, we fit in quite well amongst what came and was done before, and perhaps achieved some real good over and beyond what came before and the Empire wasn't some massive outlier on the scale of wicked things nations do. So that maturity doesn't happen. IFYSWIM. Im not well and not writing thoughts properly.

You accept Christianity = you accept empire, or at least imperial attitudes

Written by a Marxist! Who taught you to think like this? I know one and this post sounds like something she would have written. Every ethnicity has a religion of some kind; it is said that it's a need in humans to worship something. The current worship I would say is football and glossy magazines.

Imperialism. If you understand the word then you can easily attach it to the PRIMO, the most imperialist religion of our time, which is Islam. Christianity is all about forgiveness; Islam is all about control & domination.

You contradict yourself. Why is ok to feel pride in my nation's achievements 300 years ago but not feel angry or regretful?

We can feel both! But generally we’re encouraged to feel only shame and repentance for misdeeds, and not pride and gratitude for our successes and achievements. The greater narrative has disappeared. I’m not advocating teaching of the glories of Empire, but neither do I see it as a cudgel with which to beat people. History should be taught in the round.

The way we teach history now is senseless and harmful. Modern ethics and morals are applied to historical scenarios - and it’s a terrible way to read the past. Identity politics encourages us to separate society into small groups and to despair at how badly treated those groups were (by our standards). The broad picture has been lost. Instead of seeing a shared history, and generally well-meaning and good people trying to improve the world in which they lived, we focus constantly on the smaller groups within it who were marginalised. Our misdeeds and mistakes don’t outweigh our contributions and successes.

The difficulty I remember was being made to feel back then, was that I was contravening some sort of black code by doing so.

Anyone can be stirred up and made to feel very wronged. Once you have that chip on you shoulder, you will naturally steer yourself towards denigrating Britain. I am thinking of a group of black girls in my class many years ago, who really got into reading about the slave trade and then become Permanently Angry and Resentful People, went Left-leaning, dropped their religion and seemed to live and breathe what was done "to them".

"Christianity is all about forgiveness; Islam is all about control & domination."

Written by someone who neither understands history or religion.

Back to the original point, John Cleese was wrong. 61% of London residents are British born, so it is still an English ( he should of course have said British) city.

They spebd ages looking at how Eyptians lived, not really how they and the other great civilizations amassed power

Power isn’t the only thing that matters, and it’s not generally interesting to young children!

Isabella - The way we teach history now is senseless and harmful. Modern ethics and morals are applied to historical scenarios - and it’s a terrible way to read the past.

Totally agree. One of the best practitioners in this double-talk is Afua Hirsch and of course Diane Abbott.