To be deeply disappointed in John Cleese

[drspouse]

I have no idea if this is typical but he just tweeted that London isn't an English city any more
What is it then pray tell? What's not English about it??

Cassian, religious involvement in and funding in schools increased hugely under Blair. This is not up for debate: google it. Yes there was always a religious element in British state schools, but it was not so strong as it has become. There were moves towards general non-faith specific celebrations rather than something specifically Christian. Nowadays not only is specifically Christian specified by the centralised National Curriculum, in faith schools themselves the religious element has increased.

I have to go!

The French population is 8% Muslim. Fall to whom?

M’y reading of that was «fall apart» or «fall to the Right». Not to an Islamic caliphate.

I guess my reason for posting was to say: the UK has tried multiculturalism - and it hasn’t worked. France has tried integration - and it hasn’t worked. The end result is similar - local people in the host nation feeling swamped, outnumbered, overrun in places where a lot of immigrants have congregated and seeing familiar places change beyond recognition. And immigrants feeling excluded, attacked, persecuted. Both sides are justified in feeling as they do. How can they be reconciled?

Why do you think that the only way of contradicting a, to paraphrase what a pp said, a culture immutable and set in stone by a 2000-yr old made-up book, is to bring back a second culture, immutable and set in stone by a 2000-yr old made-up book?

I'm not sure who this is intended for?

To be fair, the books are more like 2500/2000/1500 years old and crucially, they build on one another. And, Judaism should figure into your equation.

I'm not fighting in this pathetic religious family squabble for you, both religions are as bad as each other, and have no concrete solutions to offer in reality

Both religions are not as bad as each other, no. Certainly not in the form they currently take. Although it’s not Christianity I’m primarily concerned for: it’s the culture which evolved from its values.

I guess my reason for posting was to say: the UK has tried multiculturalism - and it hasn’t worked.

I don't really think humans are even remotely hard-wired to cope with multi-culturalism. There are those amongst us who are comfortable with it - my husband is a cultural anthropologist as is his mother, they're both at ease with it, but I'd wager that they're exceptional.

I think even they would agree that it tends not to work.

has tried integration - and it hasn’t worked.

Well no, it hasn't failed-that was precisely my point earlier. France got lazy at some point in the 90s and failed to address the issues. Those communities were deserted. Now they've been targeted by extremists they've become a "problem" and have got everyone's attention again. The principle of integration hasn't failed but if you don't invest in it, it's doomed to fail.

It’s a bit extreme to say that multiculturalism hasn’t worked. In many areas and situations it has.

How can they be reconciled?

I honestly don’t believe they can be. I think a clash is inevitable. I’m not generally a pessimist, but I don’t think this question will be answered in our lifetimes. Humans are so slow to change.

The reality of immigration ultimately always involves loss of identity and culture- it's inevitable. I may teach my kids my native language but I'm under no illusion that my descendants may not speak it. Immigrant communities know that and some resist the absorbsion more than others but in the end they will be absorbed.

“The reality of immigration ultimately always involves loss of identity and culture- it's inevitable”

I agree- of the immigrant community. I honestly don’t see how the indigenous population loses theirs.

Yes, that's what I meant.

I know you did- I was just underlining it. There are those on this thread who may not grasp it!

I honestly don’t see how the indigenous population loses theirs

Disingenuous as always. But they quite obviously do, and have done throughout history, if the immigrant community is large. One broad identity and culture must prevail if people are to live peaceably alongside one another.

Because they are encouraged not to allow their culture to be imposed on the immigrant community?

My DD attends a school (not a church school) where all the events that happen in the winter term can't be called Christmas anything (fair, concert - even though the bloody concert takes place in a church!) because 'inclusion'. But there's no idea that Eid or Diwali are called anything but Eid or Diwali (not celebrated in quite the same way but certainly more than just acknowledged). Even the Halloween disco can't be called that because 'not everyone celebrates Halloween'.

For me, that's a good example of British culture being affected. I do love DD's school and their inclusivity is amazing, but this annoys me every bloody year!

My DD attends a school (not a church school) where all the events that happen in the winter term can't be called Christmas anything (fair, concert - even though the bloody concert takes place in a church!) because 'inclusion'.

It's wrong because that's not a balanced handling of diversity. Inclusion should mean everyone is included in the celebrations, not scrapping them. If religious festivals are celebrated, they should all be done properly or not at all.This sort of well meaning initiative only breeds resentment. It's just not very clever but it's the school's fault, not the immigrants.

Lots of anecdotal rubbish here.

See the other thread about people being invited to Eid celebrations and Iftar. People complain about that too, and at the same time accuse people of not integrating.

Obviously depends on extent of immigration. In New Zealand, the Maaori would be very surprised to hear that it's only the immigrants who face culture loss.

All blanket statements on this subject are asinine.

yes, of course. And their heart is in the right place. But it's an example of the existing British culture (celebrating Christmas, which of course many families do in an entirely secular way) being diluted or subsumed. The bottom line is that whilst there are many children at the school who's families aren't British born, most are in fact from Christian communities - I would think that far more of the immigrant families are churchgoers than not.

rivers obviously my earlier statement doesn't apply to colonisation. The Maori were colonised. Are you saying this is what's happening in Britain?

I really, really love these threads, all the multiculturalism doesn't work bullshit

At the same time as complaining that Christmas isn't celebrated. A Roman festival, based on the stories celebrating a Middle Eastern Religion, where we tell our children that a Greek Bishop flies through the sky like ( based on the the myths of the Norse gods) to deliver them presents under tree that comes out of German tradition.

Yeah, muppets.

Rivers When I was in NZ about 10 years ago, the Maori culture was absolutely celebrated by everyone, white and Maori. I didn't dig deep but it was a very marked contrast to Australia.

Cassain, how odd. I wonder why they chose to expunge Christmas? Seems wholly unnecessary. My eldest attends a school in England in a town famous for its significant Muslim population. Most of her classmates are Muslim. They still have Christmas fairs and pork sausages for school dinners (obvs there is also a halal option). I am not aware of any complaints.

I actually don't suppose any non-Christian parents would complain (and the very devout Muslims don't go anyway as they won't attend any event where there's booze, and the PTA make a lot of money from their mulled wine stalls! So you might as well just call it the Christmas whatever). I get the impression this is well-meaning white people 'checking their privilege' or somesuch.

Cassain- thanks for distinguishing us from Australia . But sadly, while many Paakehaa do study Maaori (albeit at superficial level- few would ever venture to a marae), it is very very very far from the case that Maaori culture is celebrated by everyone. NZ not only has many people in denial about the nastier parts of our colonial history, but there are a lot of people who are openly racist and hostile to each other (on both sides). Tune into NZ talkback radio some time and you will hear people say the Treaty should be ripped up, they are sick of kids in schools being brainwashed (because you learn a smattering of Maaori words at primary school level), that Maaori all bash their wives and kids, etc ad nauseam.

When polled, many recent immigrants are also antagonistic towards the Maaori and their rights under the Treaty of Waitangi.

I'm going to shut up as this is way offtopic.