To be deeply disappointed in John Cleese

[drspouse]

I have no idea if this is typical but he just tweeted that London isn't an English city any more
What is it then pray tell? What's not English about it??

“the total is only 8-10%, it feels like a lot more ”

It doesn’t matter what it feels like- that’s what it is.

Personally I will never accept the faith of Christianity, nor it being made part of our heritage and culture in the present at all, even ignoring its use of propping up a birth-based hierarchy. It''s dead. It was never rational, it was as divisive and aggressive as Islam is now and never did much for women. Let that one go. I prefer to celebrate the natural and actual rebirth all around us than create male-based mystery hierarchies.

It's the foundation of Western civilisation (along with Judaism), so while you're free to let it go, you'd be wise to understand that many won't.

It doesn’t matter what it feels like- that’s what it is.

Of course it matters what it feels like; obviously there's the matter of highly uneven distributions of populations.

No it isn't.

The foundations of Western culture go back before this particular little - near eastern, actually - cult was mashed together with a few others and exploited by the Romans to solve their instability problems in the absence of anything better.

It goes back to the rationality of the Greeks, the rationality of Babylonian scientists, and the democratic / egalitarian / earth-based spirituality (can't remember the special name - something from anime?) - of the Northern European peoples. We have heritage from everywhere, beyond this narrow idea of a dead god and the male hierarchy it supports.

If we had kept Christianity out of the bloody schools, if bloody Blair hadn't brought that back, that religion would be dead by now. I know very well how convenient it is for members further up the hierarchy to support it, but some of us will resist it as we have always done. It has never stamped that out no matter how many persecutions and show trials it starts.

And no matter how much it attempts to re-write history. That black poem earlier in the thread was interesting. The very first victims of the British empire were the English people themselves.

“Of course it matters what it feels like; ”

Well it doesn’t if what you’re talking about France “falling” to the Caliphate......

Personally I will never accept the faith of Christianity, nor it being made part of our heritage and culture in the present at all

But it is part of culture in the present. We have a CofE and some wonderful traditions that spring from it that we should cherish - lovely architecture, the hymns from King’s College. I’m not a believer despite being raised a Catholic. No one expects you to believe anything you don’t want to. I was just trying to make the point that Christianity is a large part of our heritage. There is so much of art and literature and music and history itself that my children don’t understand, because I didn’t teach them anything about Christianity, and I did them a disservice. For example, we went recently to the Banqueting House and I was explaining who all the various characters were in the Rubens paintings, because they couldn’t interpret the meaning themselves. English literature is stuffed full of biblical references that I can understand, but pass them by.

So I’m not trying to cram belief down anyone’s throat, not at all. Just trying to make the point that some understanding is beneficial.

Macron's repressions are firing a revolution.

With all due respect, that is bullshit! I know the place pretty well and it's not true. The gilets jaunes tried to stir some kind of revolution but it's petered out. Not because of Macron's 'repression' but because they simply had no coherent message and did not morph into a political movement. It raised questions (Some of them contradictory) but offered no solution.
By the way, Marine LePen didn't do as well as she'd hoped in the EU elections (which is usually where her party/her father's party) has outshone the rest (like UKIP in the past and the BXP now).
France remains a liberal democracy.
On immigration and integration, the phenomenon of visible headscarves etc is relatively recent. It's down to the last 25 years and governments' failure to keep up youth services in suburban estates. They closed down and in swooped Wahabi "youth workers" proselytizing their particular brand of Islam. It's only because the republic turned its back on 2nd and 3rd generation children of MENA immigrants that we see this problem.

If we had kept Christianity out of the bloody schools, if bloody Blair hadn't brought that back, that religion would be dead by now

You’re of course entitled to that opinion, but I absolutely disagree with you. And think we’d all be poorer for the loss. In fact, we are.

Some understanding of a foreign religion's symbols and language that have no real relevance any more, fair enough. We don't need to force through inductions into hierarchy and divinely-appointed inequality.

The foundations of Western culture go back before this particular little - near eastern, actually - cult was mashed together with a few others and exploited by the Romans to solve their instability problems in the absence of anything better.

Yes, and they were all consolidated into the Roman Empire which of course later split into East and West, and we are now legatees of the West. I understand the point you're making, but there is very much a template that we inherited that is the marriage of the Empire and Christianity.

earth-based spirituality

Gnostics?

Of course it would be dead. It's only since religious schools have been operating that suddenly the idea that we're a Christian country has come back. Before that we were acknowledged secular.

“Before that we were acknowledged secular”
Britain has never been a secular society.

Some understanding of a foreign religion's symbols and language that have no real relevance any more, fair enough

We won’t agree on this then! I think they do have meaning and relevance.

Before that we were acknowledged secular

That’s just wilful re-writing is history to suit your purposes, I’m afraid. We’re still nominally Christian - we have a Church of England.

Why do you think Britain was secular before Blair? He and Cherie in particular would be delighted to hear that they kept Christianity alive.

And think we’d all be poorer for the loss. In fact, we are.
Well, I have to agree that we need to understand Christianity if only because it's had an overwhelming influence on all of Western culture- not just English. Try studying literature or any other Arts subject without understanding Christian references!
Balance and openness is key here I think. We shouldn't be after a cultural revolution in which the past is wiped out, we have to build on it.

It's only since religious schools have been operating that suddenly the idea that we're a Christian country has come back

They’ve been in operation for hundreds of years. And state schools have always sung hymns and taught prayers.

We shouldn't be after a cultural revolution in which the past is wiped out, we have to build on it

I absolutely agree

We'd have to disagree on that. It was in Blair's time that religious schools suddenly came back, that's not a matter of opinion. The question of how Christian we were before is more so, I'll admit. I'm basing the idea of Britain's secularity based on the acknowledged fact that the church was dying at that time, fewer people claiming it as a religion in census, lower attendance, and the attitudes and opinions of my social circle at the time. I don't think Christianity was a major concern of the 60s/ 70s generation in flower-power times, nor of the 80s scene.

"marriage of the Empire and Christianity."

That is my main point, actually, in regard to religion. You accept Christianity = you accept empire, or at least imperial attitudes. It's no accident that the marriage of high politics and Christianity, in Britain started or at least given a huge boost by Blair, has come back to us from America. Democratic nation states can, in practice, approximate to federations of city-states, or approximate to empire. Federations of city-states, and city-states themselves, have much more longevity. At the moment Britain is approximating to empire, and looking to Christianity to continue its traditional role of legitimisation.

You accept Christianity = you accept empire, or at least imperial attitudes

What nonsense.

You accept Christianity = you accept empire, or at least imperial attitudes

Then the same must be true of Islam, Judaism, and Zoroastrianism.

People accept Christianity because they accept the mysticism of Jesus Christ to varying degrees (not all believe he was the son of God, and that he was literally resurrected from the dead and so on). That this was absorbed into the Roman empire doesn't really matter to those who are true believers.

Whether you like it or not, Christianity is still woven into the fabric of our institutions. When i naturalised I took an oath. I could have gone for an affirmation, without references to God but there you go: swearing an oath is still the final step on the path to British citizenship. The Queen is both head of state and head of church.

what do you mean, religious schools came back? The church has always operated schools, in fact they were (and in some cases still are) the only people to provide education for the 'poor' (ie those who can't pay).

I think what changed under Blair was instead of kids just going to the nearest school, Ofsted inspections and parental choice shone a light on church schools and showed that many were doing pretty well, suddenly they became super-popular and they chose to impose church-going criteria on families wishing to send their DC to those schools.

I keep thinking this is an irrelevance, but it isn't really is it. Christianity versus Islam is a large part of the issue.

Why do you think that the only way of contradicting a, to paraphrase what a pp said, a culture immutable and set in stone by a 2000-yr old made-up book, is to bring back a second culture, immutable and set in stone by a 2000-yr old made-up book? What is the gain? All you are setting us up for is war. I'm not fighting in this pathetic religious family squabble for you, both religions are as bad as each other, and have no concrete solutions to offer in reality. All you have is propping up a status quo that is simply not good enough for those of us born to the bottom. We need a different path.