To be deeply disappointed in John Cleese

[drspouse]

I have no idea if this is typical but he just tweeted that London isn't an English city any more
What is it then pray tell? What's not English about it??

And the rights of sexual minorities.

Immigrants have to obey the law.

Which sexual minorities, or do you mean to say they're in conflict with other interests? Paedophilia is usually agreed to be an unacceptable encroachment on rights of children, BDSM usually requires consent and strong individual negotiations.

What we do about it in general terms is parley, and try to reach agreement. The starting questions are who is being affected by this, and how. Personally I will always look at real detriment, physical, financial etc, over vague individual or even group (religion) feelings. We re-affirm one nation, one law over everyone and ensure the law is as fair as possible. What we don't do is refuse to talk to anyone who doesn't agree. There's been too much of that for years.

It shouldn’t be a matter of concern that London - a supposed example of tolerance and acceptance and multiculturalism - is the least liberal place in the UK in it’s attitudes towards homosexuality? Over half of British Muslims surveyed wanted homosexuality to be criminalised again, and just under half didn’t want a gay person to teach their children in school. These are very serious values challenges and they need to be addressed.

“Over half of British Muslims surveyed wanted homosexuality to be criminalised again, and just under half didn’t want a gay person to teach their children in school”

I’d be interested to see the figures for the “indigenous” population on those points to be honest. But people can think what they want. It’s acting on unacceptable ideas that’s wrong- and that’s what we have the law for.

@DarkAtEndOfTunnel

It’s the usual example, but in the case of FGM, a societal norm to some, there can be no parlay or negotiation or compromise. I’m sure you’ll agree with that!

As I said, I'd look at real detriment. FGM is real detriment. Homosexuality itself offers no actual detriment to anyone else, and outlawing it does, to homosexuals. I'll just get the Judge Judy hat from BertrandRussell... We need to get Parliament working again, as a priority.

People can think what they want. It’s acting on unacceptable ideas that’s wrong- and that’s what we have the law for

But who are you to say that views expressed in the Quran (for example) are unacceptable? The Quran might tell me one thing, Western society another. Which to believe?

I've no intention of explaining how obviously racist stuff is racist to you. Ta.

Your dictionary seems to be scrambled. It's defining "ability to" as "intention of."

Is your hovercraft full of eels ?

People can think what they want. It’s acting on unacceptable ideas that’s wrong- and that’s what we have the law for

I think most people, generally speaking, feel comfortable and safe when they’re surrounded by people with whom they have a certain amount in common. No family or community or nation can survive if every individual has differing views on the essential tenets of society. We need to agree on basic things to make the common project work.

I agree that what people think is entirely their own business. But those thoughts translate into action - on a small scale within a family unit, or into violent action as they did at the Charlie Hebdo offices, and on Westminster Bridge, or political action, eg. Brexit. It damages a society to be so fractured.

That’s why we need to make clear what our British values and principles are. If other people agree and think along the same lines, they are welcome. If not, they may decide they’d be happier elsewhere.

“The Quran might tell me one thing, Western society another. Which to believe?”

You can believe either or neither. What you can’t do if you live in the U.K. is act in ways that are not permitted by the law.

I've no intention of explaining how obviously racist stuff is racist to you

It’s a non-starter, because it’s not racist

“That’s why we need to make clear what our British values and principles are“

So what are they?

You can believe either or neither

As I said earlier in the thread, my daughter sits alone at lunchtime at school. She’s the only Christian child in her class, so the others exclude her and tell her that eating with a non-believer is like eating with a dog.

Thoughts translate into actions. It’s unbelievably cruel and hurtful - but no matter, it’s not illegal.

So what are they?

Another fatuous question. Yawn.

You said we need to make them clear. Why is it fatuous to ask what they are?

I missed your earlier post about your dd, by the way. That is shocking bullying and the school should be taking it very seriously. If it doesn’t, there are people on the education boards who can advise you on how to take it further.

Regarding Charlie Hebdo, and the question of publishing images: there’s no real detriment, but equally there was no great advantage to publishing cartoons which were offensive to some. So on the whole, they shouldn’t really have been published. There’s the first offence. Did the publishing cause such detriment that attacks were justified? Of course not, violence is real detriment. That’s the second offence. Both guilty, 2nd offenders more so. . I have a simple mind. Next?
No, a child of one religion should not be made to feel inferior by those of another. It’s a group bullying an in individual, I hope you reported it.

What do you think about pragmatism as a founding British value?

tell her that eating with a non-believer is like eating with a dog.

So their parents are cunts and bad muslims, that's all. They just need to learn about Islam properly.

isabella In the situation you described with your daughter, the school has a duty of care towards her. The children and more to the point, their parents need to know that the school finds that behaviour unacceptable and disciplinary action will be taken against anyone who is found to be bullying your daughter. A similar thing happened to me at secondary school. I am Asian but not Muslim. I spent 2 years pretending to be Muslim so I could have friends. I was beaten up because someone saw me eating something they thought was pork outside school. I was taken out of the school after that but I still remember it 30+ years later so I know how awful it is. But the answer is for the authorities to make clear what behaviour is and isn't tolerated, legal or not. Immigration isn't to blame per se. People being unable or unwilling to call out unacceptable behaviour is.

Yes- I have to say I have never heard of Muslims not wanting to eat with people of different faiths. It must be a particularly unpleasant sect.

Regarding Charlie Hebdo, and the question of publishing images: there’s no real detriment, but equally there was no great advantage to publishing cartoons which were offensive to some.

You know what I found really offensive ? That "breaking point" poster that the Leave campaign used. Which, was much harder to avoid than a few cartoons as it was on billboards.

Yes- I have to say I have never heard of Muslims not wanting to eat with people of different faiths. It must be a particularly unpleasant sect.

If the PPs daughter is Christian, then as a child of The Book, Muslims are bound to protect her, and should look very hard at their own understanding of the infinite mercy of the prophet.

Only today, I saw a bus with a massive poster on the side urging Muslims to be grateful for the blessing of Ramadan, and to donate to the local foodbanks ...

So. Pragmatism, resilience, reserve. modesty. Justice. Fairness, tolerance and self deprecation.

Any more for any more?

I agree with him. Its a multicultural British city - and I think that's a good thing! Less keen about having been priced out many years ago (as London born and bred) but that's the flip side of economic success.