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To be deeply disappointed in John Cleese

999 replies

drspouse · 29/05/2019 23:06

I have no idea if this is typical but he just tweeted that London isn't an English city any more
What is it then pray tell? What's not English about it??

OP posts:
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7
crazyasafox · 30/05/2019 22:55

@IsabellaLinton

I think the benefits of multiculturalism are perhaps experienced more by the middle class.

If you’re middle class, you can afford these exciting new restaurants. There is less competition for your job. You can have a cheap cleaner, a cheap nanny, and you live in a nice neighbourhood so don’t live with the social tensions that some of us do.

100% agree.

We’re in Camden. My DD is shunned and excluded at school as she’s Christian, and most of her classmates aren’t. She sits alone at lunchtime as she’s told that eating lunch with her is like eating with a dog. Sad

That is so sad. And (some) people wonder why some white people/Christians prefer to live in areas that are predominantly white/have British born people in them.

And as I said much earlier in the thread; ethnic minorities always want to be with their own culture and race, so it's disingenuous to say it's wrong/racist/xenophobic when white people want to be with their own culture and race.

@whiteroseredrose

According to the last census about 82% of the UK population identified as white British. Of the greater London population it was about 44%. A huge discrepancy.

I agree that several parts of the UK not just London don't feel English anymore.

My late Grandmother was born and bred in an area in the North of London. Her family had lived in and around the area for 100s of years. But during her lifetime it changed massively and it made her very sad and insecure. A lot of the local shops that she had visited all her life changed hands and no longer catered for her needs. And the area started to look shabby and run down. We went to her GP once and she was the only woman without a face covering. She said that she felt like a stranger in her own home town.

To her multiculturalism and diversity was not a good thing.

This in spades. ^

And THIS ^ kind of thing is the reason that loads of people I know moved out of London - after being born and raised there and living there 4, 5, 6, or 7 decades.

The areas they knew and loved became very run down, and most of the shops no longer catered for their needs, and most of the new shopkeepers didn't speak English so they couldn't make themselves understood. In addition, the schools were so full of ethnic minorities that the UK born/Christian children were being taught all kinds of things irrelevant to them, and that they didn't understand, including various languages that they would never, EVER use.

Problem is (as many posters have said,) multiculturalism is often not a good thing for many UK born citizens, because the ethnic minorities (who move to the UK,) won't integrate. Unlike the 40 people, couples, and families, in my village, who have embraced British culture, by joining the Church, joining in with neighbourhood activities, or joining hobby groups. Every last one of them speaks English, they are all friendly, and they have never expected anyone to bend over backwards to accommodate them or their culture.

Not gonna lie, I used to live in a big town myself that became very multi-cultural (Not London,) and I saw the majority of the town deteriorate, and its identity was lost. We were told by the council that we had to adhere to this rule and that rule, to pacify ethnic minorities and couldn't do certain things in case it offended them (like put a Merry Christmas sign up or fly an England flag when it was a football tournament.)

Yet these same people spoke hardly any English (often none) and moved around in big groups, completely ignoring the British born people there who were doing everything they could to not offend them. They moved to the UK, stayed in the neighbourhoods with people of their ethnic group only, stuck with their own culture and way of living, and carried on living as if they were still in the country they came from.

Makes me wonder why they bothered coming to the UK really, as so many of them make so little effort to integrate with the people who are here. (And as I said, they often carry on living as if they are still in the country they came from.)

After 40-odd years of living in that town, I moved to an upper middle class village in a rural area, and it's predominantly people born in the UK, and English speaking. I feel much more comfortable there. So shoot me! And as I said, the 40 families/households (out of 280 here,) who ARE ethnic minorities, are much more friendly, and they integrate more. They are largely professionals, like doctors, lawyers, teachers, uni lecturers, piano teachers, dentists, and small business owners. They are nearly all middle class/upper middle class.

I wonder if deciding to integrate or not, is a class thing with ethnic minorities who move to another country?

HelpMeFindAName · 30/05/2019 22:56

And 9 times out of 10, these people won't live in the 'vibrant' neigbourhoods they profess to admire, but in well-to-do suburbs surrounded by mostly white middle class Brits just like themselves. @Eliza9919 @IcedPurple

I don't think so. I didn't grow up surrounded by "white middle class Brits" and I went to a (poor in most ways) Comprehensive school. Certainly most teachers weren't excellent! Someone commented about high educational attainment being about the amount of money London authorities get, not forgetting that those who live in London do pay a lot in the way of taxes. I genuinely do believe, based on my experiences, there is a correlation between immigration and high educational achievement.

Also @Eliza9919,I think you are talking about first generation immigrants, who, as you point out, are more likely to have insular mindsets. I have experienced that too. However I know that none of my non-white English born and bred friends and family harbour such insular views. Our children and grand children will be mixing freely with other English people who have heritages from around the world. The one thing I can support is marriage on a religious basis, as there should be nothing wrong about wanting to marry someone who shares the same Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddist etc. faith as you.

@avalon For the record, none of our parents and elderly relatives had inherited wealth/middle class privileges. To say so bluntly that there is a link between immigration and crime is disgusting. You have your experiences (e.g in Islington of all places) but I have mine . Stop generalising and making it a race issue. Culture and race are different things.

IsabellaLinton · 30/05/2019 23:03

Anyone can point it out, but at least be transparent in why you are pointing it out

I thought he was - from what I am remember, forgive me if I’m wrong. I think he said that the society in which he grew up was gentler and more cohesive. He feels a certain nostalgia for those days, as I’m sure many people of his age do.

My own grandparents grew up in Handsworth - it used to be a very well-to-do area with lovely homes, where as children they used to roam in complete safety. But over the years it changed. A man was kicked to death on their doorstep and they had petrol poured through their letterbox. The increase in violence was unbelievable. My grandad’s elderly brother, who’d remained in the area, was frog-marched to a cash machine by a local gang and forced to hand over his pension! These people who had been born there and raised families there realised they were no longer safe in their homes Sad

So I can understand why John Cleese feels sentimental about those times. My grandparents feel the same. The society in which they lived was - although obviously worse in some respects - far more peaceful.

Eliza9919 · 30/05/2019 23:17

It's all just champagne socialists that call for more 'diversity' and laud it as such a great thing.

All those NIMBY's that live in lovely areas untouched by all these problems. Whose lives and kids educations aren't affected.

Ask the people that live among it and are actually affected by it, and you get a different story, as this thread has shown.

Songsofexperience · 30/05/2019 23:19

I totally agree we have a crime problem. My DH was threatened by a guy with a knife after work last year. We were burglared the same month. One of our neighbours was mugged by a moped gang. One of DD's teachers got glassed in the face and ended up with permanent scars. Yes there is more violence in and around London.

By the way @Isabella I think how those kids at school treat your daughter is disgusting. Proper little fascist bigots the lot of them. Bigotry and stupidity are very evenly spread out in tje world, no shortage of that! Nothing gives anyone the right to treat others like dirt.

I'd say however most of the problems discussed on this thread could be solved with more police. Ghettoisation may make things more complex but mostly we need better services -and for the home office to do a better job on all fronts.

LateVictorian · 30/05/2019 23:31

One of the biggest issues I have tbh is the fact that some people feel that some one like myself being an English and British patriot is racism. That to me drew the line.

Poppies being burnt was probably the moment I realised this country is well and truly at it's worst.

Avala2019 · 30/05/2019 23:37

Helpmefind, you may find my opinion disgusting but I do think there is a link between immigration and increased crime levels. The gangs I see hanging around our local park and tube station are not English but either first or second generation Somalian, Nigerian etc etc. And to blame increased crime levels purely on cut back on policing is also ridiculous. What on earth about individual responsibility? Why not look at the root causes of crime (massive breakdown in the structures of our society, crap parenting, lack of moral guidance etc). Or are we all saying that we don't commit crime simply because we'll get caught. Oh and I pay plenty of tax but my son is still going to a rubbish school.

HelpMeFindAName · 30/05/2019 23:39

To add my last pennies worth, I think this thread has derailed a bit from the actual point of why it was created. From a non-white English Londoner perspective, I feel sad that any child of mine (who will regardless of whom I procreate with look physically non-white) will be looked up and down by a bigoted person - such as Mr Cleese and any of the many commentators on this thread - and instantly be summed up as a "foreigner" with their Englishness dismissed.

@crazyasafox In addition, the schools were so full of ethnic minorities that the UK born/Christian children were being taught all kinds of things irrelevant to them, and that they didn't understand, including various languages that they would never, EVER use

This does not reflect my experience (or any I know of) from going to a school "so full of ethnic minorities" in London, so your experience must, I hope, be rare. I remember everyone speaking English to each other, even if many had other languages common to each other and this was in the nineties. Your comment is rather prejudiced - nothing taught is ever irrelevant and learning bits of ANY language is priceless. Your sanctimonious view that UK born/Christian children are deserving of only certain bits of knowledge is rather concerning.

Where there are cases, normally in the first few years of primary school, where children may not be fully proficient in English, these hindrances typically disappear by junior and secondary school. Those ethnic minority pupils of whom you were/are so horrified about would be on an level field with that of their white counterparts (if not higher, based on statistics).

Avala2019 · 30/05/2019 23:47

Helpmefindaname, that is so not what Cleese was saying at all. I actually feel sad that my son is denied any form of cultural identity of Englishness. You aren't actually allowed to say you are English and to have an identity as an English person are you? Not allowed these days. Bonkers really as every other country in the world is allowed to be proud of and to try to preserve its heritage and cultural identity so why can't England?

LateVictorian · 30/05/2019 23:48

Today 23:47 Avala2019

Helpmefindaname, that is so not what Cleese was saying at all. I actually feel sad that my son is denied any form of cultural identity of Englishness. You aren't actually allowed to say you are English and to have an identity as an English person are you? Not allowed these days. Bonkers really as every other country in the world is allowed to be proud of and to try to preserve its heritage and cultural identity so why can't England?

^ THIS with a cherry on top Flowers

IsabellaLinton · 30/05/2019 23:48

@Avala2019

I think I said this upthread, but at some point we seem to have decided that crime wasn’t the fault or responsibility of the individual but somehow caused by society at large.

Interestingly, several studies have shown that it isn’t the harshness of the punishment that dissuades people from committing crime, but the likelihood of being caught. If you know from the outset that if you attempt to burglarise a house you stand a good chance of being caught - you won’t attempt it. More visible policing on the streets is sorely needed.

@Songs thanks for your kind words, I appreciate it!

m0therofdragons · 31/05/2019 00:01

Most people speak English? I work in a hospital outside of London and have been asked to cost up translating our patient information leaflets into different languages. To translate them all to just one other language (and we will need a number of languages) is around £80k. The nhs doesn't have the money but there is a need... that's 3 nurses per language. They'd need to be updated every 2 years too. My aunt is a head in a London primary and only 2% have English as a first language.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing, I love the multicultural feel of the UK but it's naive to suggest everyone speaks English.

BertrandRussell · 31/05/2019 00:14

“ I actually feel sad that my son is denied any form of cultural identity of Englishness. You aren't actually allowed to say you are English and to have an identity as an English person are you? ”
I find this baffling. What aren't you “allowed” to do?

LateVictorian · 31/05/2019 00:33

@BertrandRussell

Many examples.. for one.. ticking white english on a form for a large number of applications does not seem to be available anymore it's now white British but it does include white Welsh, Scottish ect.

St georges day is another that seems to be riduculed by the Loony left. You get alot of people (who again seem to be white middle class folk) asking why a load of drunk white people with England tops are celebrating someone who isn't originally english (again why does that matter why do the Left always seem to bring it up) - we are celebrating it cuz it's our culture.

To be an English patriot now you are classed and judged by alot of people.

Laurajjj · 31/05/2019 00:36

London today, like most capital cities, is very much an international city. It wasnt 50 odd years ago. So he is right.

BertrandRussell · 31/05/2019 00:43

White British seems perfectly reasonable to me-you don’t have the option of white welsh or Scottish!
My children have taken part in St George’s Day parades every year for the past 18 years as part of the Scout movement. Whose fault is it that in many areas it seems to have berm hijacked by drunk men in football tops?

LateVictorian · 31/05/2019 00:48

No you don't get my point they have tick boxes for white Welsh Scottish ect but not for white English.

And I have never known any football hooligans to have gone out on st George's day and caused brawls - I think your getting mixed up with football matches Wink

BertrandRussell · 31/05/2019 00:57

“And I have never known any football hooligans to have gone out on st George's day and caused brawls”

I was quoting you!

BertrandRussell · 31/05/2019 00:58

“No you don't get my point they have tick boxes for white Welsh Scottish ect but not for white English.“

Never seen a tick box for white welsh or white Scottish!

AnnaComnena · 31/05/2019 00:59

Whose fault is it that in many areas it seems to have berm hijacked by drunk men in football tops?

The fault of the drunk men in football tops, I would think?

One sees the 'you know he wasn't English, don't you?' here on Mumsnet whenever anyone starts a thread about St George 's Day. Neither was St Nicholas English, but one doesn't see the same comments about 'Santa' when December rolls around.

And speaking of football tops, football is another subject which has huge cultural significance and huge importance to communities, but which is just dismissed with a sneer by many, as seen on at least one recent thread.

LateVictorian · 31/05/2019 01:10

No what I ment was '..why a load of drunk white people with England tops..' which is what the Left will typical quote to us when we are celebrating it.

The whole point I ment was anything Englishness that is celebrated some people believe it to be associated with EDL, racism and the far right. Which is not the case. (Of course there are some who will be extreme but that is the same with all cultures it's just some. It's just the English culture who seem to be ridiculed for it even more )

RubberTreePlant · 31/05/2019 01:19

@LateVictorian , @BertrandRussell

To be deeply disappointed in John Cleese
RubberTreePlant · 31/05/2019 01:22

www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/ethnic-groups

LateVictorian · 31/05/2019 01:24

@BertrandRussell

R.E tick boxes..

I have, as I worked for an extremly boring company which involved me doing many application forms (format ect) and 'White English' was asked to be removed as it seemed inappropriate. I have also done many applications for jobs ect and do not get this option anymore. White British is of course fine I just don't get why when they do use the specific nationality they dont tend to include English. I have seen the White English option but it's very rare now.

RiversDisguise · 31/05/2019 01:36

Football is a favourite target of snobs, yes.

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