To be extremely disappointed in my colleague?

[TheAggrievedBoss]

NC, as this may be outing if someone recognises the basic facts.

Recently, a bunch of managers were fired from my workplace. It caused quite a stir as the people affected were quite prominent within the firm. And obviously, questions were asked.

Due to circumstances I won't go into, I happen to be privy to the events that led to the firing. In a nutshell, they involved an alcohol soaked occasion involving possible graduate hires - in other words: university students - some reckless and dangerous behaviour and, worst of all, allegedly grown-arse married managers deliberately making student girls pliable with alcohol in order to have sex with them. In other words: rape in my opinion. In other words yet: these men getting the sack was more than deserved and probably a lot less than what they actually would have deserved.

So, the other day one of the men working for me asked me about the background of the firings - and since I'm not explicitly forbidden from disclosing what happened and happen to think it's a good idea for my employees to give some thought to why behaviour matters, I gave him a rough explanation. Not much more detail than I've given here.

He thinks it's unfair and that the student girls targeted were as guilty as the grown executives deliberately getting them drunk and luring them with the prospects of a job. That they could've just said no. That I'm wrong about group pressure. He wasn't there and he sure as hell doesn't get female socialisation, the urge to be polite, power imbalances in a job search situation, the sheer malice of these (thankfully ex-)colleagues deliberately targetting young women effectively under their care at the time ... just the whole horrendousness of the situation.

And I'm horribly disappointed. To me, not getting this just smacks of ... well, misogyny and a fundamental misunderstanding of what sexism looks like in practice.

I get that as his boss I don't get to determine his opinions. But AIBU to be horribly disappointed that a normal, intelligent, otherwise pleasant and progressive man would hold such an attitude?

Yes, you can be disappointed, but it still seems to be that there are different expectations of behaviour between men and women. We should be past all that by now, but we’re not.

I would be horribly disappointed and disgusted by his attitude, too. I would also bear it in mind when deciding who to put in positions of responsibility via promotions, business travel, mentorship, etc. At least you know this guy is a misogynist now rather than him being a secret one like so many.

So what is a woman to do in order not to be complicit then? Literally tell every man she meets "hi, I'm X and - just to make this abundantly clear, I find you horrifying and please don't ever touch me"?

I was under the impression that, short of physical assault, you couldn't really get a clearer case: there's an imbalance of power and incentives. There's intent. There's an expense account. There's an age and hence maturity gap. There's a de facto care taker situation.

And the women are STILL to blame?

I mean, WTAF, dude???

One of the myriad reasons we still need feminism more than ever

And, sorry, I realise I'm ranting.

I'm just absolutely horrified at the attitude and hate the idea that this is what the men working for me might really be thinking.

I'm a rape survivor myself. The general situation was somewhat similar (though not work related). It took me years to come to terms with the factvthat I wasn't to blame for what happened and to cope with the shame.

I hate that thisbis how, effectively, my employee views me, too.

It's a harsh reality that with every generation these opinions need to be challenged. YANBU at all for being disappointed in his reaction. But you now have an insite into his opinions for future reference.

what an idiot. I’d be very careful on the assignments I’d send him on. And not see him as mature enough to be promoted.

I’m sorry you feel uncomfortable managing this man. . No pearls of wisdom as to do anything you’d have to disclose your experiences to a misogynist or management.

Women need to be held to a higher standard in my opinion, we are able to say no. The managers behaved appallingly and the students didn't have my power in the situation, I hold both to be true. I hate this view that women are weak and unable to say no to men.

Sorry *no power.

Social conditioning - it's so insidious.

On the upside, I don't really feel uncomfortable managing him or his likes at all. I doubt it makes me a more generous boss, to be honest. I'm seriously contemplating ordering the lot of them to take mandatory diversity training which won't help, it's a crap training, I've been to it, but at least they'll all spend the day thinking about matters.

And, yes, women are obviously able to say no to men.

But women are also socially conditioned to be nice and accommodating. And job seekers are well advised to try and behave as though they're a good fit for their prospective employer's company culture. And many students have nothing like the emotional maturity these days to distinguish between a piss up with mates and something like this. And the colleagues in question did it on purpose.

Seems clear-cut enough to me.

I think diversity training as suggested sounds a good idea op.

Seeing as your bosses have sacked a bunch of managers, I would have thought you are in an industry, where there is a lot of alcohol / socialisation. As this has happened once, it could happen again. You say diversity training is rubbish. Perhaps you could talk to management about more specific training on this issue. You could also cite what the colleague said without divulging who said it.

You will find your colleague wont be the only one with this attitude, people have differing attitudes. We are not robots.

people have differing attitudes.

I get that. But why is this always accepted so matter-of-factly when it's misogyny?

If he'd said "well, slaves in the confederate states could have just run off and fled north" people would recognise it for the horrible naïveté-racism mis that it is.

It's not just any old attitude of many, surely? It's just as vile as being racist or a homophobe. Why do we trivialise misogyny?

YADNBU. Diversity training sounds like a great idea.

My DP is sexist without even realising it. He would certainly not go as far as your ex-colleagues but he thinks he is a cut above me and I believe this because I am a woman. He sees anything he does for the DCs or housework as helping me. But it is not helping me because it is all as much his responsibility as mine. He is quite happy to sit and relax, watching me slave away with housework. This is not unusual.

Sexism is still absolutely rife. That is why Women still earn less than men.

Your focus is wrong. Forget your colleague.

Has this all been swept under the carpet? Or have the police been involved?

I'd ha e told him that you'd allow your daughter to be in this situation?

Also if they do This with naive graduates looking for a job, what about women working at the company who were struggling? Would these people be seen as easy fodder to get what they want with the whiff of do this and you'll get a pay rise / wont sack you .... hideous behaviour

But women are also socially conditioned to be nice and accommodating...And many students have nothing like the emotional maturity these days to distinguish between a piss up with mates and something like this.

You've done it yourself, until women believe we're strong then why would men? I am not weak and I'm able to say no to a man.

Both have personal responsibility but actually the colleagues are really your concern because it's work I guess so my advise would be to try to hold the other person's perspective as a manger and see if you can understand it.

Your focus is wrong. Forget your colleague.

I disagree. My employees are mine to manage. This is not. I've contributed what I needed to to the bigger picture and let the board of directors handle the rest. Which they did exceedingly well, to their credit. But it's neither mine to resolve nor for me to go into at this point. For somewhat obvious reasons, the firm has a vested interest in not having random management comment on their actions on the internet, and I shall respect that. They did good.

This has nothing to do with the students. The employees acted unprofessionally and in such a way as to bring the company into disrepute. That’s a sackable offence according to most contracts of employment. Your colleague is a dick if he can’t see that.

I think you need training on tolerance to others opinions op.

Can you give your team training yourself, or personally source a better training person?

It looks like there was the right response from the company in this case, which is encouraging.

I agree that women often socially conditioned into being nice and accommodating, but I do think that is increasingly untrue. It's definitely true of my generation (late 50s), but I see much less (if any) evidence of it in my 19 and 21 year old daughters.

They went to an all girls school from 11-18 which I think helped.