To be extremely disappointed in my colleague?

[TheAggrievedBoss]

NC, as this may be outing if someone recognises the basic facts.

Recently, a bunch of managers were fired from my workplace. It caused quite a stir as the people affected were quite prominent within the firm. And obviously, questions were asked.

Due to circumstances I won't go into, I happen to be privy to the events that led to the firing. In a nutshell, they involved an alcohol soaked occasion involving possible graduate hires - in other words: university students - some reckless and dangerous behaviour and, worst of all, allegedly grown-arse married managers deliberately making student girls pliable with alcohol in order to have sex with them. In other words: rape in my opinion. In other words yet: these men getting the sack was more than deserved and probably a lot less than what they actually would have deserved.

So, the other day one of the men working for me asked me about the background of the firings - and since I'm not explicitly forbidden from disclosing what happened and happen to think it's a good idea for my employees to give some thought to why behaviour matters, I gave him a rough explanation. Not much more detail than I've given here.

He thinks it's unfair and that the student girls targeted were as guilty as the grown executives deliberately getting them drunk and luring them with the prospects of a job. That they could've just said no. That I'm wrong about group pressure. He wasn't there and he sure as hell doesn't get female socialisation, the urge to be polite, power imbalances in a job search situation, the sheer malice of these (thankfully ex-)colleagues deliberately targetting young women effectively under their care at the time ... just the whole horrendousness of the situation.

And I'm horribly disappointed. To me, not getting this just smacks of ... well, misogyny and a fundamental misunderstanding of what sexism looks like in practice.

I get that as his boss I don't get to determine his opinions. But AIBU to be horribly disappointed that a normal, intelligent, otherwise pleasant and progressive man would hold such an attitude?

Even when at my drunkest, I always found my ways to say job to anyone suggesting sec. Of anything I'd been more likely to be sacked for slapping the guy in these circumstances.

It's wonderful that you've always had the courage and self-possession to resist sexual coercion, even within a power-imbalanced situation. Personally, it took me years and several mistakes to accomplish that, and I believe I am in the majority.

100% agree with Salmon. It's time to stop infantilising women and describing us as weak and vulnerable because of our 'socialisation'. A grown woman can say no if she no longer wants to drink. All young women need to be taught that getting paralytic because of male pressure is a situation they ultimately need to avoid because there are certain types of boorish, sexist men who will behave this way towards female colleagues and they are not going to change their behaviour anytime soon.

Otherwise we are teaching girls that they are not fully responsible for and in control of their own actions and men actually hold the power to 'make' them do anything they want. This is a really damaging message.

Chilax- If a woman is out for drinks with a group of men, is uncomfortable with their behaviour and wants to leave then what should she do? Stay as a point of principle because she also wants the power to stay out drinking? Obviously it's shit that she is in that position as a result of a man's behaviour but there have been several occasions when I've left work drinks sessions after just a couple as I didn't care for the company in the group, the language or behaviour (of both male and female colleagues) was unpleasant. It hasn't left me emotionally scarred.

I recently started a thread about a female colleague of mine who completely fucked me over on a work trip abroad by getting absolutely hammered, running and shouting around a bar and refusing to do her part towards a joint client presentation. I received some great advice but was startled by the number of people who made excuses for her: suggestions were that she had PND, a shit husband (I made no mention of him!), some other illness or was stressed. She was none of those things but some people seemed reluctant to just hold a woman responsible for her own actions.

Of course they can say “no” to an extra drink, decide to make one last all evening or leave if they felt uncomfortable.

Yes, but, I've been in situations where I've realised someone I'm with has been topping up my drink/ordering doubles when I asked for singles etc. I'm older and wiser to this sort of thing now - and know to just abandon drinks, and to make sure that on my round I get plain tonic with nothing in it, or to ask for ice cubes in a separate glass and keep topping up the first drink with them so I can always look like I have a drink.

But the fact of the matter is I shouldn't need to have all these sneaky tactics to avoid being plied with alcohol I don't want, and haven't asked for.

It's not as simple as just refusing the drink when a person is actively trying to get you drunk without you noticing is it.

Oh dear, @TheAggrievedBoss you are not being unreasonable ... far from it. And not "aggrieved" either, but absolutely rational & reasonable.

What your senior managers did was serious sexual harassment, borderline rape - actually, probably rape if the young women were too intoxicated to consent.

Last night I watched quite an unsettling "yoof" documentary on BBC3 (on the iPlayer) called Is This Sexual Harassment?

It was clear to me (a 60 yo woman) watching the first bit of the fictional situation set up for discussion, that the male manager was sleazy, the employee knew it, but was trying to remain polite, and by not responding in kind, was signalling to him she was not at all interested.

However, what was interesting was the response from the young men, many of whom require women not to be "polite" but to tell them "No." Otherwise they think hitting on female colleagues or employees is OK.

They had no idea about female socialisation to be "nice" or "polite" or non-confrontational. Of course, as soon as the female employee overtly rejected her manager's advances, she was sacked.

So it might be a good film to show all your team, in terms of understanding sexual harassment as an equalities issue.

I was under the impression that, short of physical assault, you couldn't really get a clearer case: there's an imbalance of power and incentives. There's intent. There's an expense account. There's an age and hence maturity gap. There's a de facto care taker situation.

I agree with you here. It's all very well saying they could have said no etc but what would people think if THEIR daughter that age was in this situation? Would they honestly think that the young women were equally culpable? Should have been held to a "higher standard"? Genuine question - could you look your daughter in the eye afterwards and say she was half to blame? It's predatory and calculated pack mentality and it's fucking gross.

I'm probably going to step back as some of this is pretty triggering but how depressing is it that sometimes I'm relieved my attack was violent and by a stranger so I don't have to defend myself against people, including other women, implying me being weak or complicit by not saying no hard enough.

Jesus wept. You're right OP, you are right xxx

I've left work drinks sessions after just a couple as I didn't care for the company in the group, the language or behaviour (of both male and female colleagues) was unpleasant. It hasn't left me emotionally scarred.

Were you summer clerking for a Magic Circle law firm?

I mean, FFS. We're all capable of leaving works drinks because the company is getting a bit rowdy.

If that's what (all) you think this is, you don't understand at all.

100% agree with Salmon. It's time to stop infantilising women and describing us as weak and vulnerable because of our 'socialisation'. A grown woman can say no if she no longer wants to drink. All young women need to be taught that getting paralytic because of male pressure is a situation they ultimately need to avoid because there are certain types of boorish, sexist men who will behave this way towards female colleagues and they are not going to change their behaviour anytime soon.

No. We need to stop infantilising men as children who can’t control their sexual urges, around whom women must adjust their behaviour and even their jobs because - boys will be boys and sex offences are part of the wallpaper.

Do you really honestly believe that men cannot stop themselves committing sex offences?

I think you’ll find the majority of men don’t agree with you.

I mean, FFS. We're all capable of leaving works drinks because the company is getting a bit rowdy.

If that's what (all) you think this is, you don't understand at all.

Yup. Depressing.

My sexual assault was like this.

We had a piss up night for all the staff. Deliberate attempts to get the newbies drunk. I was a newbie.

After my assault, they weren't allowed to do staff piss ups anymore. It's not sodding appropriate to deliberately get people drunk.

It is especially awful when the higher level staff, who have a duty of care to those under their management, are the ones getting people drunk.

The man who assaulted me was a senior manager of sorts also.

What resulted was alot of people ignoring me and making me feel like it was my fault. There were alot of people who tried to absolve themselves of blame despite them knowing this man was a danger to female staff. I really didn't like that and told them so.

There is nothing you can do to change your colleagues stance. Victim blaming is standard unfortunately. Women do it, men do it and in doing so contribute to the misogyny of the act.

It's a classic boys will be boys and women are to blame for their wrong actions kind of stance.

Do the training and hope that one day it gets through to your colleague. In the meantime, I hope your senior managers have put a stop to ridiculous drunken nights. It's okay to go for a dinner and drinks but deliberate attempts by managers to get people drunk is irresponsible and an abuse of power.

Ok two points,

I do not agree this is sexual assault or rape. Unless the op tells us the women did not consent, then, if there was consent, and they were able to consent, then I do not see it as sexual assault or rape simply because these young women wanted the jobs so went with it.

I do totally agree that women need to take responsibility for their actions and can't be treated like incapable idiots forced to fuck for jobs.

And secondly no I do not see the women as the sexual aggessors, nor did I even remotely indicate this, in fact I went as far as to say I think the men behaved worse. I simply said I feel they have a responsibility here and partially agree with the colleague.

Do I think the women bear a responsibility. Absolutely . Beyond a doubt and we do need to stop absolving women of any responsibility in scenarios like this. They willingly went with these men. They chose to drink. And assuming consent and capability they chose to fuck for the possibility of a plum grad job.

That's not sexual assualt. That's not rape. It's shit behaviour from all concerned. Each one of those women could have walked out. Left with their dignity intact. To know that the sort of job you need to fuck for isn't the sort of job you want.

The company did right to fire the men, but let's not pretend the women are blameless here.

Plink, I cross posted with you and am only referring to the ops situation. Yours is different. You did not consent and were unable to consent. That's sexual assault

When someone is able to give consent, both physically and mentally, then I don't agree it's sexual assault or rape.

Yes, but, I've been in situations where I've realised someone I'm with has been topping up my drink/ordering doubles when I asked for singles etc.
Surely you can't conude that the sole reason for it was because he was planning to lure you into sex though.

Nor can it be assume that because a woman (not you) accept drinks from a man and end up having sex with him, she forcibly wouldn't have done the same if she hadn't been hammered.

It's so frustrating how people always make generalisation of individual circumstances to suit a cause and worse judging others for not thinking exactly like them.

Do you really honestly believe that men cannot stop themselves committing sex offences

It is not a sexual offence to have sex with an adult woman who consents to that sex of her own free will and is wholly capable of making that decision.

Her reason to have sex may be many things, money, a job, gifts, love, attraction, but it is in no way a sexual offence if it is consensual.

Is it bringing the company into disrepute, absolutely. Offering jobs for sex is clearly gross misconduct. But you can't say it's a sexual offence. It's not.

I would suggest that in the light of recent events there needs to be some kind of company wide diversity/sexual harassment/sexual discrimination training.

This could be given to all employees and should cover power imbalances and differences in socialisation.

I am struggling to believe that in the circumstances you describe there hasn't been a strict confidentiality protocol?
It is extremely unprofessional of you to be discussing this whatever the opinion of your colleague is.

I do not agree this is sexual assault or rape. Unless the op tells us the women did not consent, then, if there was consent, and they were able to consent, then I do not see it as sexual assault or rape simply because these young women wanted the jobs so went with it.

These men were fired for “some reckless and dangerous behaviour and, worst of all, allegedly grown-arse married managers deliberately making student girls pliable with alcohol in order to have sex with them.”

They were fired for trying to commit sex offences regardless of whether they actually succeeded. As well as other dangerous and reckless behaviour.

It is not women’s responsibility to stay away from or leave graduate fairs to avoid sex offences and reckless behaviour, it’s men’s responsibility to control themselves.

They willingly went with these men. They chose to drink. And assuming consent and capability they chose to fuck for the possibility of a plum grad job

What on earth are you talking about? There is nothing of this in the OP, it’s entirely your own invention.

Part of the reason why it's accepted is because companies like your's cover it up. If the behaviour was bad enough to merit numerous sackings then there should have been a major re-assessment of the culture within the company and training programmes for the remaining staff.
As a manager, I would not have entertained a conversation with a staff member trying to minimise what had happened either. I'd have made it quite clear his view was irrelevant to acceptable behaviour in the workplace and that if he disagreed then he should reconsider whether the company is the right fit for him.

I think everyone will agree that women shouldn’t have to guard against coercive sexual behaviour, men should be taught that it’s fucked up.
However some women do play the game, I’m sorry if this offends anyone, but they do, therefore it’s not possible to make general statements.
Human nature and motivation is complex. A company statement to all staff would be a better way of acknowledging why ha happened instead of whispering about what might have gone on.

Tatiana I'm not going to agree with you. Of course they went willingly
Otherwise the op would say they had been abducted.

And no matter how much you scream and bang your fists it's a sexual offence to have consenting sex with an adult women when she's only doing it because she thinks she might get a plum job out of it. I can categorically assure you it's not. The police would tell you consent is what's key. And there is nothing to say they did not consent, we're capable of doing so and of their own free will.

It's many things. And it's right they were fired. But it is not a criminal act for two adults to have consensual sex.

Of course they went willingly. Otherwise the op would say they had been abducted.

We don’t even know any sexual contact occurred. Can you not see this is your invention?

It's also time companies stopped hosting events where this sort of situation is an almost inevitable outcome. Graduate recruitment should be done in a professional manner, not with a bunch of people getting shitfaced when everyone knows the decisions have yet to be made as to who gets hired.

Sorry for multiple post, Wi-fi playing up