To be extremely disappointed in my colleague?

[TheAggrievedBoss]

NC, as this may be outing if someone recognises the basic facts.

Recently, a bunch of managers were fired from my workplace. It caused quite a stir as the people affected were quite prominent within the firm. And obviously, questions were asked.

Due to circumstances I won't go into, I happen to be privy to the events that led to the firing. In a nutshell, they involved an alcohol soaked occasion involving possible graduate hires - in other words: university students - some reckless and dangerous behaviour and, worst of all, allegedly grown-arse married managers deliberately making student girls pliable with alcohol in order to have sex with them. In other words: rape in my opinion. In other words yet: these men getting the sack was more than deserved and probably a lot less than what they actually would have deserved.

So, the other day one of the men working for me asked me about the background of the firings - and since I'm not explicitly forbidden from disclosing what happened and happen to think it's a good idea for my employees to give some thought to why behaviour matters, I gave him a rough explanation. Not much more detail than I've given here.

He thinks it's unfair and that the student girls targeted were as guilty as the grown executives deliberately getting them drunk and luring them with the prospects of a job. That they could've just said no. That I'm wrong about group pressure. He wasn't there and he sure as hell doesn't get female socialisation, the urge to be polite, power imbalances in a job search situation, the sheer malice of these (thankfully ex-)colleagues deliberately targetting young women effectively under their care at the time ... just the whole horrendousness of the situation.

And I'm horribly disappointed. To me, not getting this just smacks of ... well, misogyny and a fundamental misunderstanding of what sexism looks like in practice.

I get that as his boss I don't get to determine his opinions. But AIBU to be horribly disappointed that a normal, intelligent, otherwise pleasant and progressive man would hold such an attitude?

5he reity is you used these very personal circumstances to try to pass your values on your new staff. This is not professional. You say you were disappointed in his reaction and are now likely to use this to taint you views of his performance. The moment he said a few words about it, you should have stopped the conversation.

I personally disagree with your stand that you are in a position to judge the sexual behaviour of these men and I'm a women. They deserved to be sacked for their unprofessional beha ioir but there is a big gap with unprofessional behaviour and personal views on the sexual vulnerability of women.

It is not women’s responsibility to stay away from or leave graduate fairs to avoid sex offences and reckless behaviour, it’s men’s responsibility to control themselves

This.

I had two male best friends for years. Then one night we started talking about #metoo. And everything I'd ever assumed about them - as part of their makeup of pleasant, intelligent men - crumbled. They didn't get it. Didn't want to. They victim blamed. Not-all-men bla bla. Looked away and gazed into the distance when I (regrettably rather emotionally) told them of my experiences of sexual assault. I've not seen them since and that was now over a year ago They've not contacted me either. Sometimes the gulf between the sexes is just too fucking wide. And I cba building bridges for idiot men and educating them like they're toddlers about shit that should be fucking obvious and infuriating to them too.

@ChillaxingInMyKimono - no I haven't interned at a Magic Circle law firm. For what it's worth, my background is in IT / Advertising Technology and I've worked in predominantly male environments since I left university aged 21. There have been many, many occasions when I've been out for drinks with my colleagues. In my very first job most of my colleagues were men almost twice my age. I got seriously drunk with them on a number of occasions, often when I allowed myself to be talked into staying for one last drink. It was an environment where promotions were heavily skewed towards team members who stayed out drinking to 'bond' with managers. For the benefit of you and @TatianaLarina who are depressed at my lack of understanding my take on this is:-

If I go out drinking with my male colleague and am persuaded into drinking more than I can handle that is my responsibility. I believe this to be true (whatever his intention is) unless he is forcibly holding me down and pouring alcohol down my throat or as in the case of a PP, my drink is being topped up without my noticing. I held myself responsible when I was a young graduate around much older men (some of whom were quite predatory) and this is the case now I am older and wiser.

If I'm propositioned by a male colleague with the suggestion that sleeping with him will lead to career advancement and I sleep with him that is my choice and responsibility. Yes, even if it's clear not sleeping with him will lead to me losing my job. It's repulsive and perhaps illegal (not too sure on the latter as I'm not a lawyer) but it's not rape unless I have been forced to have sex with him.

If I get drunk through my own choice and end up alone with my male colleague and he has sex with me while I am drunk/incoherent/unable to consent then that is rape.

I have two DC. As soon as he is old enough I will teach my DS to never, ever have sex with a woman who is under the influence of alcohol at all. I'll also teach my DD the importance of knowing her own mind, owning her decisions and not allowing herself to be talked into anything she doesn't want to.

I have no idea why you think any of this means I am excusing men who sexually harass or assault women. I fully believe men must be held accountable for their actions.

I fired two men in my team for using the company credit card to visit a strip club (and one of them claimed he was pressured into it..) so I really don't make excuses for anyone.

Regarding the OP, I have no idea what occurred between those men and the young women but certainly sounds as if they deserved to be fired.

@swingofthings when you say They deserved to be sacked for their unprofessional beha ioir but there is a big gap with unprofessional behaviour and personal views on the sexual vulnerability of women
don't you see the contradiction you're making?

Here's the OP:

He thinks it's unfair and that the student girls targeted were as guilty as the grown executives deliberately getting them drunk and luring them with the prospects of a job. That they could've just said no. That I'm wrong about group pressure

This suggests that the OP's younger colleague is as likely as the senior managers to indulge in unprofessional behaviour. His response suggests he is as unprofessional (and ignorant of workplace LAW) as the senior managers who were sacked.

This is a situation where "personal views" on interactions with female colleagues ARE hugely relevant to professional behaviour.

Thank you @Upzadaizy and @plunkplunkfizz

I once couldn't get out of bed for two full days other than to go to the bathroom, because some people who didn't know my past (I tell very few people in real life and am frequently disgusted by the volume of victim blaming in all circles of life) were reference a news story about a girl being raped in which her clothes were mentioned.

I couldn't hold it in and through snotty tears whispered "I was wearing jeans".

The tears and the inability to do anything a couple of days afterwards were because:

1. I can't bear the fact people ever think a victim is "asking for it" so the conversation was already incredibly upsetting

and 2. I felt utterly ashamed I brought up my outfit because still don't know if it was to "clear my name" which is offensive to every other rape victim because it doesn't matter what we were wearing. Ever. I've heard something "they were asking for it" about other girls rapes that even though I disagree with it entirely, I still felt I had to defend myself against it.

Enough about me. Sorry to derail.

The OPs post was about whether she is right to be disappointed in the colleagues behaviour. I'm not sure anyone can disagree with her feelings on this, as surely anyone would be disappointed.

To see the turn this thread took is so disheartening for rape victims like me. Please always be kind with your words about these kind of topics.

Sorry meant to say:

I've heard something "they were asking for it" about other girls rapes SO OFTEN by so many people that even though I disagree with it entirely, I still felt I had to defend myself against it.

This suggests that the OP's younger colleague is as likely as the senior managers to indulge in unprofessional behaviour
It doesn't suggest this at all. I tend to agree with his views yet would never try to get a guy drunk in the hope they'd had sex with me.

Acting drunk and making sexual suggestions is enough to be acting unprofessional regardless of whet er they would have gone ahead and end up in bed with the girls.

I was the receptionist at a top tier law firm who organised these recruitment events. I'm afraid the males in the firm, from the partners to the juniors, looked on the female recruitees as just another part of the buffet.

My perception could be coloured by having been sexually assaulted by a staff member myself though. At a work do. Not drunk. But blamed by the women who watched as having brought it on myself. For having walked from the venue to a bar with the guy, and then dancing with him. In a perfectly non-sexual manner. I don't know who I hated and despised more at that rotten, rotten, place.

@Bluntness100 what the fuck are you talking about? This is the op

In a nutshell, they involved an alcohol soaked occasion involving possible graduate hires - in other words: university students - some reckless and dangerous behaviour and, worst of all, allegedly grown-arse married managers deliberately making student girls pliable with alcohol in order to have sex with them.

Are you saying she's a liar? Do you know more about the situation than she does? Were you there? No? So you just like throwing around your half baked opinions basically.

YANBU.

I remember in my first job, aged 22-26 on a temporary contract, going out in work ‘do’s and my boss’s husband would be there. He would buy me and the other young women limitless drinks and make it very hard for us to say no. We had temporary contracts and didn’t want to piss him off as he had made a big show of slagging off ex employees and made it clear that people he didn’t like (he was a ‘good judge of character’ ) didn’t last long at the job.
He never took it to extremes as obviously his wife was at these events, but he would engage us in lewd conversations and get us to talk about intimate things, he would stroke out hands and backs and hold our waists and upper arms to ‘help’ us as we were drunk.
Went on for years and was revolting, and we felt utterly powerless and felt sure that i we upset him in any way he’d say something to his wife to get our contracts terminated.

Maybe he doesn’t get that they were deliberately trying to get them drunk? Maybe he just doesn’t understand how anyone can determine that? Don’t shoot me down - it’s totally wrong to ply girls with drink in order to get sex and in their position they need to be more than careful considering that it looks like the only way to get or keep a job is to sleep with the people in charge - but maybe this guy didn’t digest the information fully before responding? Maybe his initial thought is that everyone was drinking so both parties were drunk so therefore it’s not rape. I only say this because I have a son, we’ve talked about sex and about consent and he’s been told (probably not for the last time) that if a girl is drunk she is in no capacity to give consent. That being said, I’d hate for my son to get drunk (when he’s old enough) and have sex with a woman who is also drunk but him be accused of being a rapist. Maybe that’s the lines along which this fella is thinking? He hasn’t yet taken into account that these men are automatically in a position of power over the girls and maybe rather than seeing them as his bosses he sees them as work colleagues? All I’m saying is let the information sink in and if it comes up again see if he’s thought about it more or just educate him. You’re 100% correct in what you’re saying that’s it’s wrong but I sometimes need to think things over or talk them through before coming to decisions on things.

The company haven’t handled it well. If this happened at my work I would expect firm wide comms saying that we expect basic human standards of decency and for all staff to be treated with respect here, this is a condition of your employment. Due to recent events it is clear we have not been sufficiently clear as to what this means. While all people involved have left the firm, we will also be running mandatory training for all staff. Failure to attend will result in a warning.

I agree with the last point. There should be a company wide "re-education" programme going on, to raise awareness of the professional standards expected and behaviour which will bring the company into disrepute.
And if the present materials are inadequate then new ones should be developed/bought in.

And that is before even considering the horrible predatory nature of the offence.