To be extremely disappointed in my colleague?

[TheAggrievedBoss]

NC, as this may be outing if someone recognises the basic facts.

Recently, a bunch of managers were fired from my workplace. It caused quite a stir as the people affected were quite prominent within the firm. And obviously, questions were asked.

Due to circumstances I won't go into, I happen to be privy to the events that led to the firing. In a nutshell, they involved an alcohol soaked occasion involving possible graduate hires - in other words: university students - some reckless and dangerous behaviour and, worst of all, allegedly grown-arse married managers deliberately making student girls pliable with alcohol in order to have sex with them. In other words: rape in my opinion. In other words yet: these men getting the sack was more than deserved and probably a lot less than what they actually would have deserved.

So, the other day one of the men working for me asked me about the background of the firings - and since I'm not explicitly forbidden from disclosing what happened and happen to think it's a good idea for my employees to give some thought to why behaviour matters, I gave him a rough explanation. Not much more detail than I've given here.

He thinks it's unfair and that the student girls targeted were as guilty as the grown executives deliberately getting them drunk and luring them with the prospects of a job. That they could've just said no. That I'm wrong about group pressure. He wasn't there and he sure as hell doesn't get female socialisation, the urge to be polite, power imbalances in a job search situation, the sheer malice of these (thankfully ex-)colleagues deliberately targetting young women effectively under their care at the time ... just the whole horrendousness of the situation.

And I'm horribly disappointed. To me, not getting this just smacks of ... well, misogyny and a fundamental misunderstanding of what sexism looks like in practice.

I get that as his boss I don't get to determine his opinions. But AIBU to be horribly disappointed that a normal, intelligent, otherwise pleasant and progressive man would hold such an attitude?

I'm probably going to step back as some of this is pretty triggering but how depressing is it that sometimes I'm relieved my attack was violent and by a stranger so I don't have to defend myself against people, including other women, implying me being weak or complicit by not saying no hard enough

This. Over and over and over again.

We don’t even know any sexual contact occurred

Totally agree with you here, the op called it rape, so I and many others assumed. But you're totally correct there is nothing to say these women has sex with these men, it could simply be the men were fired for going out on the piss with potential recruits and rhe op is extrapolating intent.

to have consenting sex with an adult women when she's only doing it because she thinks she might get a plum job out of it.

This is where I disagree with you: it's the only part. My interpretation - based on the fallout the OP describes - is that they weren't doing it only for the job, they were doing it because they were subject to extreme pressure. Men don't necessarily need any specific leverage in order to be sexually coercive towards young women, and women don't necessarily need an ulterior motive not to resist sexual coercion. It could be that they "wanted the jobs so went with it", or it could be that they were being pressurised by a larger, older, more powerful man, or a group thereof.

We've slipped into hypotheticals here, as there doesn't seem to be any evidence that any actual sexual activity took place. Since we don't know the details, it's quite possible the young women did say no when the intentions of the men became clear, left the situation as one, and then jointly lodged a formal complaint which is what led to the whole affair coming to light. I'm assuming at least one of them spoke up, and the evidence of nefarious intent must have been pretty convincing to lead to a mass firing.

When someone is able to give consent, both physically and mentally, then I don't agree it's sexual assault or rape.

I agree with this.

the sheer malice of these (thankfully ex-)colleagues deliberately targetting young women effectively under their care at the time ... just the whole horrendousness of the situation

Personally if my boss had told me about this event as you describe it her, which is providing a lot of detail, and used the words 'sheer malice' I would have questioned your own professionalism and clear biais. How could you possibly know their actions were due to sheer malice!

What the OP was:

allegedly grown-arse married managers deliberately making student girls pliable with alcohol in order to have sex with them. In other words: rape in my opinion

Ie: get them so drunk they could be taken advantage of. What they were trying to do was rape them in her opinion.

She never said that that had happened. We don’t know if any sexual contact actually occurred. It was what they were trying to do that them fired.

Well, they got fired for it so obviously their managers agree it's sexual assault and aren't sitting back saying 'hey they were complicit'.

So we don't actually know what happened, do we?

It's all hearsay.

Yes, but, I've been in situations where I've realised someone I'm with has been topping up my drink/ordering doubles when I asked for singles etc. I'm older and wiser to this sort of thing now - and know to just abandon drinks, and to make sure that on my round I get plain tonic with nothing in it, or to ask for ice cubes in a separate glass and keep topping up the first drink with them so I can always look like I have a drink.

It's really sad that you felt under duress to mess around with glasses of ice, and topping up your glass just so it looked like you were drinking.

The next progression in society must surely be that it's acceptable and to be respected (for anyone) to be able to say openly "I'm not drinking thanks" in exactly the same way as "no means no" for sex.

There is still a stigma associated with not wanting to get off one's head on alcohol and taking autonomous decisions to stay sober, with the toxic power imbalance resting firmly with (primarily male) decision-makers calling the shots.

What's your employer's policy on alcohol (ability to claim on expenses, guidance on behaviour when out on company business etc) OP?

They may have sacked the perpetrators, but if the policy is lax and unspecific, or if managers and staff are permitted to flout policy and a blind eye turned to this behaviour, then there is nothing to stop this situation occurring in the future, Lessons rarely get learned when the dust settles, if there are not laws to throw at people.

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What is consent? Is it saying Yes..... or is not saying No enough?

Proper consent is freely and enthusiastically given. There may be no words involved, but both parties are into it because they want to be.

If a woman is severely intoxicated, she can’t legally give consent. If she’s just a bit tipsy she can - but the alcohol, combined with social pressure, might mean that she does not object even though she doesn’t really want to be doing what she’s doing.

Personally I don’t think that’s reprehensible behaviour by the woman, I think it’s someone responding to a range of pressures at a time when her critical thinking ability is impaired.

Puzzled I do agree with you, but I think that's a nuance which can't be legislated, and so those sexual encounters must fall into the category of "regrettable" rather than "illegal", and into the "live and learn" category for the women involved.

I'm horribly disappointed. To me, not getting this just smacks of ... well, misogyny and a fundamental misunderstanding of what sexism looks like in practice.

I entirely understand why you're disappointed in this man. I would be keeping an eye on him in the future, knowing that he might let the company down in future as those managers did so badly.

Thanks for understanding @Upzadaizy I was beginning to think nobody would acknowledge that as it's an uncomfortable truth I struggle to articulate outside. I appreciate being acknowledged after sharing something that makes me feel vulnerable on a heated thread xx

Well, they got fired for it so obviously their managers agree it's sexual assault and aren't sitting back saying 'hey they were complicit'

This is so far from correct it's mind boggling. You can't seriously think the only reason to fire them would be sexual assault?

They would be fired for bringing the company into disrepute. Sitting drinking with a bunch of grads in what was supposed to be a recruitment event and getting drunk. That's gross misconduct right there. There may have been no sexual contact at all. Never mind bloody assault.

Unless the op writes what was written as the reason for their dismissal it's all subjective but I'd say sexual assault is a very highly unlikely.

More likely this was an abuse of company expenses, and bringing the company into disrepute at a recruitment event, classified as gross misconduct and fired due to their unprofessional behaviour.

Amy sexual assault would need to be reported to the police. And as the op has not said there was any police involvement, then I'd assume there was not.

Really some people go too far they really do. Even saying they were under "their care,'. They were grown women. Don't infantilise them.

Missingstreetlife
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I would be interested to know how this world go.

Each one of those women could have walked out. Left with their dignity intact.

Do they not have dignity now? One of the worst things about being assaulted is the feeling of being lesser. Had anyone even said my dignity was not intact following an assault I would have utterly lost it. The fact something unhappy may have happened to these women in no way impacts upon their dignity.

QuimReaper

I broadly agree - there hasn’t been enough detail given for us to know whether an offence has been committed in law. But clearly the company concerned decided that a breach of their professional standards had been.

I stand by the view that the person with more power in the situation - in this case, the managers - is the one with greater responsibility to uphold proper standards.

Hypothetically speaking, as one pp said - if one of the young women started coming on to a manager with the express intention of sleeping her way into a job, the right thing for him to do would have been to rebuff her and terminate her involvement in the selection process. It’s exactly the same as if she had offered him a large cash bribe - unacceptable to offer, unacceptable to accept.

Nothing to suggest that was what happened here. The opposite, in fact.

Yes, I'd be disappointed too, but totally unsurprised. You're his boss, though. Just make it very clear what counts as acceptable behaviour. And don't feel the need to justify it too much. Anyone who still thinks like this after the metoo revelations is being wilfully ignorant. And yes, find a better trainer - maybe anti-oppression training.

The behaviour of the Managers was abhorrent and it is good that your company took the appropriate action. I hope they go further and commit to appropriate training and education to ensure it doesn't happen again.

What does it say though about how women are being brought up if they accept drinks and 'being nice' and having sex in order to land a job? We need to empower the young so that they are confident and feel able to reject coercion.

But these women may have rejected these men. The op simply hasn't given enough detail. Her op stating they were trying to get them so drunk they could not consent and then they could rape them I have to say I'm not sure about. That speaks to intent.

For all we know they picked the prettiest ones off and sat buying them drinks at a recruitment event and they all got drunk and disorderly and someone reported them. Or it showed up on expenses. As said, for many companies that would be gross misconduct right there.

The ops made a very serious allegation. She's alleging these men intended to rape these women and if she's told her colleague this, and there was no evidence of such a thing and no sexual activity id personally expect the op to face disciplinary procedures.

Each one of those women could have walked out. Left with their dignity intact.

No matter what the intent behind the posts (I'm not saying you deliberately mean any malice) please could you be a little more considerate with your wording because this made me feel physically sick as someone who has been raped.

Again, I really people using these phrases hope you never have to use them in real life to their own daughters after they've been sexually attacked. Before you say them try imagining if you'd have the candour to say the words to the face of a loved young woman in your family who didn't walk out and ended up feeling scared, out of their depth and pressurised.

"Please promise me if you're ever scared again you'll call me and we'll find a way to get you safe" is an acceptable and loving response.

"You could have walked out with your dignity intact" is disgraceful.

Do you see how if it was your daughter one statement sounds like you're a caring empathetic human and the other sounds cold, cruel and unempathetic?

I'm someone's daughter too. So are they. Think before you use phrases like "dignity intact" around the subject of sexual assault.

It's not often a thread upsets me but this really has. It's my burden to bear I know and I'm glad not everyone has been through it but fuck me it's depressing to hear these attitudes to the complex issue of consent from women.

The ops made a very serious allegation

Are you the OP's colleague - a young man who is worryingly ignorant of the law around sexual harassment, Bluntness ? (As well as a person of pretty low standards of respect to others).

The OP has not made an allegation about the senior managers. She's reported that they've been summarily dismissed. When asked why she alluded to a possible reason.

Her query was NOT about the dismissal of her managers - it was about her young colleague's reaction to the story.

Try reading before you go on & on in such a sexist way, which is actually contrary to the Equalities legislation and employment legislation, about sexual harassment in the workplace.

Well said ThatCurlyGirl.

ThatCurtlyGirl

I've never been raped, but I've been sexually harassed in the usual boringly normal way on the street, at work, and in leisure time. It is really distressing (and must be 100 times more so for you) that people like Bluntness still peddle such thoughtless and unrealistic clichés.

And as someone elsethread (or on Twitter) said: Why do women have to pull out the most extreme situations or examples simply to preserve the rights we are supposed to have as human beings.

Being free from sexual predation in the workplace should be a given, not something that we have to fight for every.single.effing.day.