To be extremely disappointed in my colleague?

[TheAggrievedBoss]

NC, as this may be outing if someone recognises the basic facts.

Recently, a bunch of managers were fired from my workplace. It caused quite a stir as the people affected were quite prominent within the firm. And obviously, questions were asked.

Due to circumstances I won't go into, I happen to be privy to the events that led to the firing. In a nutshell, they involved an alcohol soaked occasion involving possible graduate hires - in other words: university students - some reckless and dangerous behaviour and, worst of all, allegedly grown-arse married managers deliberately making student girls pliable with alcohol in order to have sex with them. In other words: rape in my opinion. In other words yet: these men getting the sack was more than deserved and probably a lot less than what they actually would have deserved.

So, the other day one of the men working for me asked me about the background of the firings - and since I'm not explicitly forbidden from disclosing what happened and happen to think it's a good idea for my employees to give some thought to why behaviour matters, I gave him a rough explanation. Not much more detail than I've given here.

He thinks it's unfair and that the student girls targeted were as guilty as the grown executives deliberately getting them drunk and luring them with the prospects of a job. That they could've just said no. That I'm wrong about group pressure. He wasn't there and he sure as hell doesn't get female socialisation, the urge to be polite, power imbalances in a job search situation, the sheer malice of these (thankfully ex-)colleagues deliberately targetting young women effectively under their care at the time ... just the whole horrendousness of the situation.

And I'm horribly disappointed. To me, not getting this just smacks of ... well, misogyny and a fundamental misunderstanding of what sexism looks like in practice.

I get that as his boss I don't get to determine his opinions. But AIBU to be horribly disappointed that a normal, intelligent, otherwise pleasant and progressive man would hold such an attitude?

Very surprised this isn't confidential information, but hey ho.

You are right to be disappointed. Just as you would be if a social mate said the same. At least you can see his colours now.

I think it is less common than it was, but still a thing - moreso when men get together and, by chance, happen to all be of the same ilk. Add drink into the occasion and what they would call banter steps over the line big time. How far it goes depends on those involved.

Of course the graduates were in a position of weakness. Getting a job is hard nowadays. I am sure these men knew that, even if only subconsciously.

Your subordinate's opinion is clearly not inkeeping with what the directors want so diversity training at the very least. He needs re educating on the company ethos of respecting colleagues and not raping them.

Trump.

I’m amazed that you are able to discuss why people were dismissed in this way, especially given you feel a crime was committed.

OP your not wanting to manage men because they all might think along a similar fashion is sexist.
We are not pathetic little things who are socially conditioned. Stop bringing things backwards and undertake training to enable you to manage your team in an unbiased way.

I wonder if he doesn't trust your account of what happened? As in, you're a woman so you've obviously told the story in a very bias way that makes it sound like the women were the victims, but really they weren't?

Obviously this isn't good either and is still misogyny. I just mentioned because I think, although I can't ever prove, that I have seen this behaviour before in a similar situation when I was younger. My account of the events was regarded as less accurate and the other colleagues (all men) very much had a "well, that's what the girls have said about it anyway, who knows what really happened" sort of attitude.

Isn't it wonderful to be young and one of only 3 women (sorry - girls!) in the entire office... I do think that times have changed now but not as much as they should have done. We still have a way to go yet.

It's disgusting behaviour (the executives and your colleague) but you talk about these GRADUATES as though they are children. They aren't, they are 'grown-arse' adults too and are not 'in the care of' anyone.

@TheAggrievedBoss

So the police are not involved?

Gosh OP, I wonder if you're outside the UK and the 'firm' you work for has the initials RM.

Because if not, this is indeed scarily similar, and you're categorically NOT being unreasonable.

The fact that there were quite a number of managers who did this suggests a culture of it amongst the men in your workplace. And the response of the man you told goes some way to confirming that. You say you’re his manager, are you in a position to arrange training for all the staff? Have someone come in and detail exactly why this isn’t OK. No need to mention what happen with those managers to everyone, but just have some training in it. And then lay out very clearly what behaviour will not be accepted if they find themselves being asked to mentor or socialise with graduates.

However you came to know about the circumstances, you should keep it to yourself. It’s massively unprofessional to gossip about such a major incident within your workplace and I’m sure your bosses won’t thank you for spilling the beans.

I’m amazed that you are able to discuss why people were dismissed in this way

Why? I'd have thought it's pretty common if you have a good working relationship with your manager they're honest (but discrete enough to keep details to a minimum) to discuss why someone has been dismissed if it's gross misconduct/behavioural issue. Certainly has been in several places I work.

I don’t think this is about men and women at all. Had the graduates been male and the managers female or homosexual males, it would still be inappropriate behaviour but your colleague may have held exactly the same opinions.

There is a ridiculous amount of pressure on both young men and women in professional roles to be obliging and ‘nice’ to superiors of both sexes.

My first thought when a man makes excuses for rapists, is that he’s done a similar thing himself and he’s shitting himself that it will all come out.

We are not pathetic little things who are socially conditioned - well that's a disgusting thing to say about young women being taken advantage of. No bloody wonder misogyny is alive and kicking when some women say things like this about victims of sexual assault.

My first thought when a man makes excuses for rapists, is that he’s done a similar thing himself

Pretty much.

@TheAggrievedBoss I think it is really important to address these attitudes and think it would have been a good idea for management to address this head on already. Im sure its no secret what happened and frankly from your description im surprised that there hasn't been legal proceedings - either way, people know and its an ideal time to introduce further training about rape culture, power imbalance etc. If the diversity training is no good, look for a different provider.

I would also hope that the policies in your workplace are being evaluated for effectiveness to limit this type of thing happening again and to make sure everyone knows how to escalate any concerns they have.

Typical man box behaviour and the terrifying thing is that men like this have absolutely no idea that THEY are the problem. Toxic masculinity runs deep. There are some initiatives designed to address this and start raising awareness of toxic masculinity and how men can undo some of this poisonous conditioning.

You might refer your colleague to this (weblike at the bottom too). It's one place to start.

A CALL TO MEN uses the Man Box to illustrate the collective socialization of men. The Man Box identifies the limitations on what a man is supposed to be and what he believes. These expectations are taught to men – sometimes unconsciously – and reinforced by society. In the man box, men are supposed to be:

Powerful and dominating
Fearless and in control
Strong and emotionless
Successful – in the boardroom, the bedroom and on the ball field
In the Man Box, women are objects, the property of men, and of less value than men. The teachings of the Man Box allow violence against women, girls and other marginalized groups to persist.

www.acalltomen.org/news/2017/7/21/what-is-the-man-box

what company is this?!to hire a whole group of men with this in them.

and you say the board has acted well.to me they havent and im guessing are lots of men.again belittling these woman, keeping this disgusting behavior under the carpet.all they need to do is get rid of the men then keep it quiet so the company can keep its positioning.

Your company was right to fire them. In my opinion though if the women had worked for your company too then they also should be subject to disciplinary. What your colleague is missing is they don't so your company has no action to take against them.

However I do not believe women should be excused for poor behaviour. We need to teach young women personal responsibility and accountability, not give them a free pass by saying things like power play, or older men etc.

So as much as the men deserved the sack, I personally believe the women also behaved badly. Unless the women were too drunk to consent then I don't consider it rape. The key question is consent. And it doesn't appear you have addressed this. If they consented and we're able to consent then it was not rape.

From what you've described here I would say all parties involved behaved badly and I'd be fucking horrified if my daughter went out drinking with a potential manager and consented to shag him for the possibility of a job. I would not give her a free pass on this.

Bluntness - if the situation is anything like the one that's similar to me, the women are, e.g. summer clerks, and they're vying for a small number of hotly contested positions in a top firm.

Professionally speaking, these are great jobs that only the best of the best get.

You have to see that this throws a completely different light on the situation, and that the men (partners - in powers of position) hold all the cards.

I think that he needs to get in with the ethos of the company.

Ultimately if its anything like where I work one sniff of this type of sexist attitude and they'll get rid. Perhaps you are happy to let that happen and I understand that.

I don't know if it was rape or not because I don't know hoe drunk they were but quite clearly it is abuse of position/ brought the company into direpute and absolutely foul behaviour. I would be flabbergasted by anyone who thought differently (and then voiced it to their boss)...!

Worrying that he was arrogant and unprofessional enough to argue with you, his female boss, about it. Watch him.

I'm sorry chillaxing, I still do not believe this was an acceptable way to try and get a job by these women. I won't ever accept it was.

Are the men more guilty, sure, and as said I believe dismissal was correct, they abused their power and behaved apppallingly. But that doesn't mean we treat the women like brainless commodities who can be excused for shagging for jobs. (Assuming consent).

So in some way yes I agree with the colleague. Unless there was a lack of consent I also believe the women to be guilty of poor behaviour.

No job is worth prostituting youtself for. None.