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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask brexiteers to explain to me why they want us to leave the EU?

363 replies

ethelfleda · 27/05/2019 09:00

I have a totally open mind here. I did vote remain but I genuinely want to know why people think that leaving the EU is a good thing?
I’m not being goady - I actually want people to convince me that Brexit is a good thing so I don’t feel so terrified of what’s to come!
So what is it about the EU that’s bad for us? What will we achieve by leaving?

OP posts:
MaximusHeadroom · 27/05/2019 13:48

I know leavers who have massive concerns about deals like TTIP. I actually agree with these concerns and would like the UK to veto if it ever came to a vote in the current (leaked) form.

However, I wouldn't trust a Tory government not to sign us up to something just as damaging, especially if we are scrabbling around for trade following a no deal Brexit.

The lack of cohesion in Parliament between leavers shows that this is not a homogenous group of people with a shared aim and it is not constructive to put them together.

The leave campaign started 20 odd years ago when domestic governments started blaming their failings on the EU and the unwillingness to be honest with people about how positive immigration has been and continues to be in the UK.

I am a remainer and the only way to change people's minds if we genuinely don't want another leave result is to actually reach out and talk to people rather than belittle and demonise them.

I feel a massive personal stake as I have lived in 3 different EU countries and my DH is from a 4th but I am still willing to try and find common ground with leavers in the hopes that we can find a decent way forward together

LimeKiwi · 27/05/2019 13:58

I am a remainer

Same

the only way to change people's minds if we genuinely don't want another leave result is to actually reach out and talk to people rather than belittle and demonise them

and this with bells on

ScreamingLadySutch · 27/05/2019 14:16

Here is your explanation:

The EU is a single market, that was formed by political will. As such, it is a top down bureaucratic structure.
When it was first formed, it achieved its ends and initially resulted in economic growth.
However, the political construct, over regulation, tariffs and especially the Euro, has severely distorted the market. Many European countries are effectively bankrupt and the Meditteranean countries are in technical default.

Germany has a net trade surplus and cannot get rid of it because they cannot manage their own currency.
Europeans are getting poorer - even the Germans.

The fact that countries are tied into a political construct that overrides the sovereignty of their nations, means that these distortions are not being dealt with, and the bureaucrats are resistant to reform.

The Single Market is the largest economy in the world. But because of the over regulation, cost of labour and protectionism, it is the slowest growing of all the economies.

Immigration is irrelevant. Europeans are simply not having enough children, the population is ageing and reducing so immigration is required. However, open borders again, is a bureaucratic political decision and not driven wholly by the markets. When you have large inflow of unskilled people from third world countries whose PCI (per capita income) is a fraction of the PCI of a European, then by simple arithmetic the PCI is lowered. This explains the tension and alienation of the working classes.

The rise in populism across Europe is a result of these economic tensions. Brexit is a RATIONAL response, not the small minded bigoted racist [fill in ad hominem slur].

The EU IS going to break up if it refuses to reform. It is just a matter of time.

Hope that helps.

ScreamingLadySutch · 27/05/2019 14:19

Looking forward, Brexit that puts the UK economy clear of EU rules, is looking towards markets such as India, China, Africa, the Commonwealth that are not bound by such politically imposed constraints (did you know that the EU is going to regulate AI, when Asia and USA has no such constraints and the 4th industrial revolution is pretty much the future),

in order to compete better and leaner with these markets. Brexit is paradoxically forward looking and embracing globalisation.

overthehorizon · 27/05/2019 14:32

AI should be regulated precisely because it is the future.

For example, AI doctors are not far off. Human doctors are regulated and so should AI ones.

ScreamingLadySutch · 27/05/2019 14:39

Last point:

the UK economy has surged in the last 3 years (count them). Unemployment is the lowest in Europe. FDI (foreign direct investment) was greater last year than Frankfurt, Paris and Copenhagen together.

This is not 'in spite of Brexit', it is BECAUSE of Brexit. Remember that FDI looks long term. So global capital is betting with its billions that Brexit is a good idea long term.

Remember that UK is a member of the WTO anyway so is bound by WTO rules.

Its not a magic wand of glory but it wouldn't be disaster either.

I started off with 'why would a country be INSANE enough to leave the largest single market in the world?' But looking at the structure of the European Union and just how distorted the economy is by political constructs, our economy is better off long term out of it. The last thing UK needs is robotics, AI and biotechnology being regulated by protectionist bureaucrats - and this is why these sectors have had the highest FDI.

Lower tariffs and taxes - and the EU has a big UK problem on their hands as the brightest and the best Europeans make for our shores. That is why they are resisting our leaving so mightily.

Any doubts, look at the performance of the economy in the last 3 years that is the POLAR OPPOSITE of what Project Fear predicted. Everything is logical as long as you follow the money for the explanation!

winobaglady · 27/05/2019 14:40

Not saying how I voted, but here's a couple of thoughts.
The EU set, and stands by, VAT on feminine hygiene products. The UK, on leaving, can stop this.
The EU currently prevents, due to the single market, the UK from slaughtering livestock prior to export
Just 2 examples.

ScreamingLadySutch · 27/05/2019 14:41

Yes, AI doctors are coming.

Why would you trust the Spanish practices of EU bureaucrats?? We can regulate ourselves, with a lighter and more responsive touch.

HarryElephante · 27/05/2019 14:45

The fact that countries are tied into a political construct that overrides the sovereignty of their nations

Brexiteers are big on this as it appeals to the inner patriot of the constituent. But it's by no means always a good thing.

Parliament impacts the whole of the UK but I'd wager quite heavily that a lot of MPs have spent more time in Europe than Newcastle, Liverpool or Hull.

overthehorizon · 27/05/2019 14:50

'Light touch' regulation in health and social care was proven to have failed some time ago. We've been ramping up the regulation for some time- and that has nothing to do with the EU.

However you appear to be arguing that we should regulate AI doctors? Not what you implied earlier?

Do you want AI regulated or not?

Gth1234 · 27/05/2019 14:51

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ScreamingLadySutch · 27/05/2019 14:55

News just in:

Yvette Cooper is facing a petition to deselect her. Her constituents voted 69%+ to leave and she is most strong remainer in Parliament.

Cooper, is one of many Heartlands Labour seats who are strong Leavers and should not be used by the BBC and SKY as stats to add to the Remain vote.

I also found this montage:

LakieLady · 27/05/2019 14:59

I'm a remainer who does not like the EU, but I see it as the least bad option looking at the world as it is now ..

I regard myself as a sort of "reluctant remainer". Imo the EU does more to promote business than to help the disadvantaged. I'm uncomfortable about TTIP. The obligation to put public contracts out to tender has resulted in a drop in standards in public service. I was very uncomfortable with the way some of our EU partners seemed happy to let migrants drown at sea in small boats. And, to paraphrase the late (and much lamented, at least by me!) Tony Benn, if the UK voted for socialism, EU rules wouldn't allow it to happen.

But the protections afforded by the Social Chapter, environmental, consumer and human rights protection are important to me. I felt it would be better overall to remain a member and have a say in the decision making process. I considered that the economic consequences of leaving would be catastrophic and that, with conservatives in charge, little would be done to mitigate those effects on poorest and most vulnerable. I knew that the Irish border would be a massive issue and could see no way of resolving it that didn't risk the fragile peace. The xenohobic undertones of some on the leave side was anathema to me. I value peace in Europe and think the EU plays a role in maintaining that. And I was deeply suspicious of the motives of likes of Rees-Mogg and Farage which made me wonder how much the implementation of the EU anti-tax avoidance measures influenced them!

So, in the end, my pragmatic head overruled my socialist heart and I voted Remain. But I totally get why some on the left voted to leave.

HarryElephante · 27/05/2019 15:02

*Yvette Cooper is facing a petition to deselect her. Her constituents voted 69%+ to leave and she is most strong remainer in Parliament.

Cooper, is one of many Heartlands Labour seats who are strong Leavers and should not be used by the BBC and SKY as stats to add to the Remain vote*

You've got to represent - and speak for - your constituents on all policies, not just one.

People are really going to town over this Brexit thing. As someone who now sits on the fence, I see both sides as pretty absurd.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 27/05/2019 15:02

The brexit discussion has been killed here

I believe you're right, and sadly MN's much-vaunted Talk Guidelines have gone the same way

We're often told that personal attacks are disallowed and yet here they all are again, tedious in their predictability

ScreamingLadySutch · 27/05/2019 15:03

overthehorizen try very hard not to use logical fallacies like 'so what you are saying is' ...

To make my argument that the EU has an economy distorting pattern of over regulation DOES NOT mean that I don't want any regulation in the 4th Industrial Revolution.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I would like the people that will regulate AI to be the scientists and regulators here in the UK who are the innovators of the 4th Industrial Revolution.

You are quite right about the 'light touch' regulation of health and social care. It was (IMO) cynical cost cutting exercise that put too many vulnerable people 'back into the community'.

When I read the heartrending posts here about people's whose husbands leave ... have you notice how many involve special needs children? Something like 75% of marriages of these high care children break down. Who is left holding the can, the already exhausted and overwhelmed mother.

I would like more institutions to help give these parents support and a break, and for it not to be so stigmatised. Call them asylums or whatevs. Just give the poor families a break.

HarryElephante · 27/05/2019 15:04

We're often told that personal attacks are disallowed

Tbf, there are personal attacks in a lot of threads. Not just Brexit ones.

Islands81 · 27/05/2019 15:09

Well. My dad voted to leave. He’s a wealthy land owner (inherited) who has done very nicely indeed through EU subsidies for years. His main reason for voting leave is because of the ‘fucking ragheads’. Blush

Because obviously they are a huge problem for him in rural Somerset. And they definitely originate from Europe Confused.

Soooo, I mean I’m not sure ALL leavers are thick and racist, but the one in my family certainly is.

Gin96 · 27/05/2019 15:10

With me I was worried we would be made to join the Euro which is in a dire situation. Deutsche Bank is holding it all together but the German bank is in a bad way and then there is the debt of Italy which is about to go pop. Even when we weren’t in the EU we had to pay towards Greece’s debt

mothertruck3r · 27/05/2019 15:10

Just curious as to whether non-white leave voters are also considered racist/ignorant/xenophobic?

Most of the EU is ethnically white with cultural traditions not that far off the UK. So remainers who believe that leave voters are all racist/xenophobes believe that, for example, a Pakistani person voting for leave is racist/xenophobic bigot for being against immigration of white Poles (for example). But I thought only white people could be racist?

Puzzledandpissedoff · 27/05/2019 15:11

there are personal attacks in a lot of threads. Not just Brexit ones

There are indeed, Harry, but I've noticed that pretty generally they get deleted when (presumably) reported

I have my own views about the contrast where Brexit threads are concerned, but just as an experiment I've reported a couple of the more gratuitous insults on this one

It'll be interesting to see what happens ...

overthehorizon · 27/05/2019 15:11

Try not to back track so furiously 😉

Anyway, regulation should be done by elected politicians- advised by scientists and written by lawyers. As it is now. Self-regulation generally doesn't work for obvious reasons.

Regarding your points about children with additional needs. Austerity has disproportionately harmed families with these children. Austerity was created by the British government - not the EU.

Leaving the EU is likely to force us into a closer trading relationship with the USA. They will likely demand more access to the NHS. This means more private companies running NHS providers for profit.

How do you think that will affect those children you mentioned?

DockerDre · 27/05/2019 15:13

Immigration.

Teaonthebedsheets · 27/05/2019 15:14

The EU set, and stands by, VAT on feminine hygiene products

That's not correct. Although not yet legislated, "In January 2018 the European Commission finally published proposals to overhaul the EU rules on VAT rates – in effect, to reverse the current approach:

In addition to a standard VAT rate of minimum 15%, Member States would now be able to put in place:
two separate reduced rates of between 5% and the standard rate chosen by the Member State;
one exemption from VAT (or 'zero rate');
one reduced rate set at between 0% and the reduced rates.
The current, complex list of goods and services to which reduced rates can be applied would be abolished and replaced by a new list of products (such as weapons, alcoholic beverages, gambling and tobacco) to which the standard rate of 15% or above would always be applied.
To safeguard public revenues, Member States will also have to ensure that the weighted average VAT rate is at least 12%.
The new regime also means that all goods currently enjoying rates different from the standard rate can continue to do so."

DockerDre · 27/05/2019 15:17

The issue isn't really EU immigrants, it has always been Angela Merkel's 'come on over here' policy about less than similar cultures.