To ask brexiteers to explain to me why they want us to leave the EU?

[ethelfleda]

I have a totally open mind here. I did vote remain but I genuinely want to know why people think that leaving the EU is a good thing?
I’m not being goady - I actually want people to convince me that Brexit is a good thing so I don’t feel so terrified of what’s to come!
So what is it about the EU that’s bad for us? What will we achieve by leaving?

*There are indeed, Harry, but I've noticed that pretty generally they get deleted when (presumably) reported

I have my own views about the contrast where Brexit threads are concerned, but just as an experiment I've reported a couple of the more gratuitous insults on this one

It'll be interesting to see what happens*

Fair enough. Personal attacks on the Internet don't bother me; either directed at me, or elsewhere. But they often derail debates so I can see the argument against them.

Brexit is ridiculously emotive and I really don't know why. Half the people vehemently yelling from either side of the Brexit divide will hardly be affected either way. My personal belief is that a lot of people are way over-invested in all this. And there are more important things to worry about, on both a micro and macro level.

You won’t hear anything as remainers will come in with the insults. They’ve started already...
Since when has being insulted ever stopped MN giving an answer?

Surely the best response is to give the answer as OP has asked for? The sound, economic, well thought out one which so many brexiteers claim to have (but never tell anyone because.....)

One thing I’m sure of; England and Scotland are totally polarised on this issue. Scotland is very pro remain, and there will have to be an independence referendum at some point. Brexiteers are eventually going to find that they can’t have it both ways; they can’t both leave the EU and keep the United Kingdom intact.

Honestly, that's the only thing that keeps me going, as a remainer. I have no desire to fight with leavers; I just believe leaving the EU is a terrible mistake, and one I hope won't affect me/my family too badly, as there will, most likely, be another indyref.

GWe're often told that personal attacks are disallowed and yet here they all are again, tedious in their predictability

I’ve noticed on Brexit threads that some posters get together and sneer and mock, not addressing their posts to the person they disagree with but denigrating said person amongst themselves in an extremely unpleasant way. I’ve reported these threads a couple of times but nothing gets done.

I voted remain, however I was very much on the fence, my reasons for leaving would be,

• Europe wants ever closer political union
• having a massive area with the same currency doesn't work, it bankrupts the smaller, less well developed countries (eg Greece). Germany can't bankroll the rest of Europe forever, but has to. It only works in the US as it's all the same country so the richer States don't mind bailing out the poorer.
• A European police force. Look what happened on the streets of Greece.
• increasing numbers of countries joining the EU that are going to be bankrupted by it
• massive amount of money wasted every year by the EU, not just moving the whole government every 6 months between two countries, but that seems particularly wasteful.
• the rules that we follow that other countries ignore (eg on giving contracts to large engineering companies, France prioritises their own companies, we followed the rules and caused job losses in the UK)
• the EU doesn't have any financial accountability, it has never had it's accounts signed off.

There's a few of my reasons, and whilst I voted remain, I'd probably vote leave if there was another vote. Non of my reasons are to do with immigration, if free movement continued that wouldn't bother me personally.

So well done, Remainers. You've killed discussion of a major issue on a major forum. Are you pleased?
You have some great reasons but you won’t share them, (and don’t anyone go looking for them) and yet it’s others killing discussion?

If you really had great, sound reasons, the type which would stand up to scrutiny, you’d share them.

@Scruffgin

Those are pretty good reasons to not be in it.

I feel the same way, but voted remain because they weren’t good enough reasons to go through the pain of coming out of it.

I'm not thick or racist or particularly old.

I come from another country but have been living here for 30 years, and it seems to me that the British never fully bought in to Europe.

We don't appear to like the French or the Germans, we never adopted the currency, we are bitter that our way of life is modified by EU rulings and constantly mutter about how stupid these rulings are.

If the European union continues to grow, pulling in countries that are borderline european, but almost universally with tenuous economies, I don't think it's in our best interests to continue to support it.

I have absolutely no problem with immigration, as long as it's beneficial, and/or humanitarian.. and there is no reason why having a visa should stop anyone from coming here as long as they can contribute ( I also have a problem with British who's family business is benefits, but that's another argument).
Clearly, as citizens of the world, in extreme humanitarian circumstances we should take the disenfranchised and those fleeing from oppression, but this could be managed with a European caucus.

The other concern I have is the formation of a European Army which brings me back to my first point. Do we trust anyone other than those we shared an empire with because we don't appear to.

We are strong, resourceful, have many trading partners excluded by the current tariffs waiting in the wings, and I think as a nation we would lose a degree of resentment against the EU that it possibly takes a non-native to see.

• the rules that we follow that other countries ignore (eg on giving contracts to large engineering companies, France prioritises their own companies, we followed the rules and caused job losses in the UK)

I wasn’t aware of that.
Why is that allowed?

We don't appear to like the French or the Germans

Are you speaking for yourself here? Or others? Because I don't think you should, speak for others, and vote with their preferences in mind.

If you're speaking for yourself, what issue do you have with the French and Germans?

If you really had great, sound reasons, the type which would stand up to scrutiny, you’d share them

Are you new to the Brexit topic threads on here, Yabbers?
People have told you why - if you read the thread, there's been a couple saying why. People did use to engage, but a lot just couldn't help themselves and killed it off. So yes, Remainers on here (not all, I''m one too) have killed the discussion off. Sad, really.

What backtrack?

Seriously, I answered the question that was put: please explain Brexit.

So I did. Without any insult, slur, or attacks. I tried to put as neutrally as I can, what the issues are.

So just asking: why are you nitpicking over distractions? Why do you think BRITAIN is incapable of regulating ITS OWN industries? Why are you trying to score points on tiny details? Not too sure what you are trying to achieve here, overthehorizon.

What about 'thank you for the explanation but I think you are wrong in the following points" [ or whatever]. You know, open, honest and respectful debate. I answered the question the OP set.

I’ve noticed on Brexit threads that some posters get together and sneer and mock, not addressing their posts to the person they disagree with but denigrating said person amongst themselves in an extremely unpleasant way

This, Yabbers. Pack mentality on threads if that clears it up a bit more for you?

These posts aren’t really asking for, and showing any interest in answers are they? Let’s be honest, the reason Remainers are still asking this same question after hundreds of previous threads on the same topic, is because they want to be goady. It’s a case of ‘let’s reel those Leavers in with a question and then when we get them all on the thread, let’s hurl childish, aggressive insults around, because it makes us feel superior and allows us to behave like arses’. It’s just basically a lot of leavers frothing at the mouth who can’t rant at anyone in RL, so choose to come on mumsnet instead.

Well, its really strange.

I set out clearly and respectfully the Brexit argument, and nobody wants to engage with my points!

Apart from a bit of passive aggressive nitpicking from Horizon, over there.

So where is the respectful engagement?

I am speaking of the standing jokes about stereotypes for instance, the german sense of humour. Google jokes about the French..or Germans..or italians...

I am speaking as someone who has noticed these things as an adult and not grown up with them so that they are inured to them.

I think it is by and large in the collective psyche, since ww1 and ww11.
I am also not criticising saying this is as it should be, wrong or should change. I am making an observation.

Historically. the UK has had a chequered history with France, since William the Conqueror in 1066.
The British relationship with Germany is similarly up and down.
I am not being xenophobic, I am simply stating that people have long memories.

You may well have shucked off any feelings of unease about A European citystate, but you must also accept that not everyone has.

Thanks for people who answered the question and it is a shame that people are so rude about your views.
I don’t think the EU is perfect but I think we are better in than out. However, I’m not quite so terrified of it anymore!

What is terrifying though is regardless of what happens, around half the population will be ignored. If we had another referendum and the result was remain, we would be ignoring the views of an awful lot of people. It’s incredibly sad to see the country so divided on this and very sad that each side won’t keep an open mind and actually listen to the views of the other!

Also, I think I would feel better about the whole taking back control thing though if I trusted the government WITH full control. The last few years to me has proven that our government shouldn’t be allowed full autonomy if anything - they’re useless!

Good post ScreamingLadySutch and one in tune with @matthewgoodwin, economics prof at University of Kent, and author of several excellent books on the subject of the EU/populism.

ethelfleda - I agree re our current crop of politicians, its a thought.

"Well, its really strange

I set out clearly and respectfully the Brexit argument, and nobody wants to engage with my points"

Not strange. Perhaps no-one is minded to. Perhaps they agree. Perhaps they don't care. Perhaps they will later. Perhaps they've read and moved on already. I wouldn't worry, nay believe it's really strange.

screaminglasysutch
I really like your arguments and points, by the way.

ethelfleda - I agree re our current crop of politicians, its a thought.

What politicians of yore do you pine for?

Brexit has been given as a major factor behind the closure of British steel & the masses of job losses in Sunderland.
To be fair, every company blames Brexit for failure. British steel has had a number of issues for a long time, long before Brexit was a thing. The global market in steel is responsible for much of the failure.

She told me all about how she was completing her degree for ‘free’ as Sweden had an agreement with Scotland that students could study for free at each place.
Your issue is with England having a different fee structure than Scotland (and much of Europe) That student wouldn’t have paid for education in Sweden (or anywhere else in Europe). Brexit or not, you’ll pay for uni in England but not in Scotland. It’s not an EU issue.

EU economy underperforms compared to UK economy so once disruption is overcome UK economy should improve.
If the EU underperforms, then U.K. economy is already in a position where it does better in the EU. Why do we have to leave to do better, if we already do better?