to think this IS stealing and it DOES count?

[Snuffalo]

Sister in law has a little piece from a fishbone cactus potted up on her windowsill, just starting to show new growth. I asked if I could have a cutting once it's established, and she said sure, or I could just go to (fancy houseplant shop up the road) and see if there was a bit on the floor, because that's where she got the cutting.

She swears she didn't break it off - that it was already broken off and on the floor near the 'parent' plant (this is believable, the shop is really crowded and you have to brush by the plants to get through).

Her argument is that it was a tiny piece (true - it's an inch long at most) and that it would have just been swept up and thrown out anyway.

My arguments are 1. unless she took the piece to the proprietor and asked if she could have it, it's still stealing. Who's to say the shop owner wouldn't have potted it up herself? and 2. the proprietor paid for the rent, soil, plant food, and put in the labour to create and nurture the plant that dropped that little one-inch cutting and SIL is effectively stealing that money and effort.

This wasn't an ACTUAL argument, just a discussion, I'm not dobbing her in or cutting her off over it, but just curious to see how other people view it.

I think you need to get a hobby.

It’s an interesting question as whether it is stealing or not really depends on whether reasonable people consider it to be dishonest and as such this kind of poll is useful.

Theft is dishonest appropriation of property belonging to another with the intention to permanently deprive. Property includes abandoned property although it was on the shop floor so I wouldn’t even say it was abandoned. The offence is made out save for the dishonesty aspect perhaps. It has to be dishonesty by the standards of reasonable people and she has to know it is dishonest by those standards.

So indeed it is very important whether people consider this dishonest! I would say that it is. It’s clearly the shop owner’s property and was on her property. She should have asked permission. To me, it’s theft, but not the worst kind. It’s a bit thefty. It’s not as bad as knicking someone’s purse, but it is dishonest.

IMO - Not stealing because it wasn't a viable plant until SIL planted it, it was on the floor to be swept up and thrown away.

I can't think of any properly similar circumstance - it's a fairly unique situation from a debating point of view ... interesting.

The nearest i can think of is taking discarded packaging off a shop floor to make use of at home. Not really stealing - probably should have asked just out of courtesy.

I've had to google what a fishbone cactus is... its lovely! I want one now damn it.

I wouldn't think of it as stealing, exactly, but it would feel dishonest to me, so I wouldn't do it.

If you see a sack of what appears to be rubbish, you are not allowed to take it, it’s theft. Just because it is abandoned, doesn’t mean it doesn’t still ‘belong’ to the owner. That’s the law. I think it’s unfair people are saying this thread is ridiculous, I think it’s interesting especially as everyone is so sure it isn’t theft because it was going to be thrown away when actually, it most likely is technically as a matter of law.

She saved it! You could look at it like that. It would be dead as a dodo if not.

This is tricky. If it was only going to get thrown away then I think it would still be stealing, albeit of a peice of rubbish. However your sister (and soon to be you) have also grown a whole plant out of it. So she has stolen a potential plant. And neither of you will be buying the plant so they will lose out on this income.

I suppose it depends on how we view the offcut. Is it a discarded peice of rubbish and does it count as theft to tidy up rubbish or do we see it for its full potential.

A great philosophical question.

Justbreathing this is is true, she has saved it. Maybe the ends justifies the means

Well it depends if she was going to buy a plant or not. And tbh growing a plant like that from scratch takes a long time!

Love threads like this - showcases the reading comprehension skills of some MNers wonderfully!

@Snuffalo, I also don’t think I’d class it as stealing, the bit that she found could very easily have remained on the floor ignored forever. Unless the shop has a sign up saying ‘no touching bits on the floor’ she’s in the clear. I might have considered asking first, but then I’m a goody two shoes, unlike my dear late gran who would wilfully snaffle cuttings from anything she fancied at RHS Wisley despite that being very very VERY much stealing and something you get in big trouble for!

That’s a cute little plant. I might go to the garden centre and see if any bits have fallen off one......

Morally, I would not call this stealing.

And a full grown one might be £50 but it’s taken about 5 years to get there.

Though people at fancy gardens get really upset when people take cuttings which is totally different. I’ve taken seeds from hedgerow plants and I’m always asking people for cuttings. Though that’s totally different. I wouldn’t just take it. Unless perhaps it was a bit of broken plant on the floor.

Good grief! You need to get a life Miss Prim!

I think it's great that we get this kind of thread...I think we normalise theft to a certain extent - taking pens home from the office etc. There is a cost to someone, but not perhaps to us.

Interesting to see how the other half think.

It is an interesting question, because you really can argue it both ways.

That she took something which would most likely have been thrown away, that is only a viable plant because of her actions, and that the owner of the plant is almost certainly totally unaware of the loss. Good justifications for nabbing a piece of a plant you want.

But it is still taking something which does not belong to you.

At the same time though, if a friend or family member did the same, I wouldn't condemn them as a thief because I can see why someone who is usually honest would not consider this a crime. I wouldn't do it myself though because I would consider it theft!

She didn't steal it, she put a piece of rubbish off the floor to good use. What should she have done - gone to the till and asked them to name their price for a chunk of broken cactus?

You sound really jealous over a plant.. are you upset you didn't see it first?

You are being completely unreasonable.
Every gardener knows that the best time to take a cutting is................. when nobody is looking!

I think a lot of people are missing this bit and giving OP a hard time.

This wasn't an ACTUAL argument, just a discussion

If I had gone to the shop, and purposely crushed that cutting underfoot, would I be guilty of criminal damage? Because if you argue that it's stealing of property, you must then agree that stepping on it on purpose is criminal damage of that property.

I think people get het up about 'cutting on floor theft' is because the criminal has gained something from it, but 'cutting on floor crushing' is not going to get anyone angry because there is no winner.
People just don't like it when people get something for nothing.

There are two questions in your thread title:

"to think this IS stealing"

Yes, probably. Under a strict interpretation of the law. How do you feel about (old gimmer time!) people who used to record films and programmes off the TV?

"and it DOES count?"

Count as what exactly?

If she genuinely 'found' it then it probably isn't stealing but as she directed you to the same business in the hope of 'finding' a piece I would doubt her word.