To be bored of the ‘it’s not gender it’s sex’ posts?

[HermioneMakepeace]

Seriously. Every time someone uses the word ‘gender’ this happens. Gender reveal parties, gender scans, etc. Everyone knows what they mean. Why nitpick and derail the thread?

The dictionary definition of gender is,

either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones.

It says ‘especially when’, not ‘only when’. IMO gender is a completely acceptable alternative to sex. And an easier term to use as it does not flag on work computers.

Does anybody else agree or AIBU?

so if your DD went into the girls loos would you be happy with the prospect of boys in there? Ditto her changing rooms for PE or swimming?

Hmm my DD's a very private person and doesn't undress infront of girls. So none of those are relevant in our circumstances. It just wouldn't happen.

It matters a lot if you care about women and girls’ sport. Trans women who have gone through male puberty, even with artificially lowered testosterone have innate physical advantages. If biological sex and gender are conflated then men enter women’s sport.

Even the Caster Semenya debate would be simplified if people talked about sex rather than gender. Caster is a biological male with a DSD leading to differences in penis development. Caster has male levels of testosterone. However because of early socialisation as a female Caster was raised as a girl and identifies as a woman. However, this does not make Caster a “female with naturally high levels of testosterone”. Sex = male.

Your DD must use public loos sometimes lucy?

lucymegan - do you only think about issues insofar as they affect you and your family? Do you never think: well, that's not immediately relevant to me, but it still matters?

I remember a sixth form student telling me once that she wasn't a feminist because the battle had been won; it wasn't necessary to fight for women's rights any more. And I couldn't believe how sheltered and uninformed she was, living in her little privileged bubble of being white, and western, and educated, and wealthy. But she did have the excuse of being very young still.

@RussianSpamBot yes she does but there men's and women's?

@TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross I have to agree with your teacher. I don't get why there's a war? What are women fighting for now? If it's the trans debate then that doesn't affect me there's none in my community.

do you only think about issues insofar as they affect you and your family? Do you never think: well, that's not immediately relevant to me, but it still matters?

No I never think like that. If it doesn't affect me then I keep my nose out.

There are lucy, but there's a growing movement for any male claiming to be a woman to be allowed in women's toilets. Also by extension changing rooms, hospitals and prisons. Because if a woman is anyone who says they are, that's the logical extension.

Lots of us radfems are really worried about the implications of this. I grew up knowing probably more Travellers than the average country person and I'd have thought most of your community wouldn't be in favour of this? You're still affected by it even if there aren't any trans Travellers because you still have to use public toilets and hospitals.

@RussianSpamBot yes she does but there men's and women's?

Jolly good. So what is a man and what is a

Because we are now at the point where a woman is anyone who says they are a woman. And to suggest otherwise is hate speech.

Ffs bloody computer

What is a man and what is a woman?

yes she does but there men's and women's?

No, not any more. What we have now is 'men's, for anyone who thinks he or she is a man today' and 'women's, for anyone who thinks he or she is a woman today'. A man with a penis who 'feels like a woman' can go into the women's loos or the women's changing rooms.

Bored? Yes I'm bored of seeing women described as menstruators, non-men, people who give birth, people who have uteruses... Really bored of women's own spaces being infiltrated by men that's what I'm bored of!

To be honest Lucy one of the things that really bothers me about the situation is that women from cultures where sex and gender is traditionally very strongly enforced are going to be a whole lot worse off than me with my white British middle class privilege.

What if you are taken Ill suddenly? How will your menfolk feel when they find out that the supposedly female only hospital ward you end up on could well have a man (who says he’s a woman today) in the next bed? I know some Muslim friends who simply wouldn’t be allowed to stay there in those circumstances. This will be a big restriction on freedoms and access to healthcare. Where does it end? No going to public loos, no women only swimming, no hospital admissions?

Hmm my DD's a very private person and doesn't undress infront of girls. So none of those are relevant in our circumstances. It just wouldn't happen.

In that case, you should empathise with other women and girls whose privacy is being compromised by the presence of males in their spaces.

It is possible to be fully aware of the threats to women from the trans movement, and supportive of attempts to thwart these threats, but still object to posts like this directed at pregnant women (copied from another thread):

It is ridiculous because babies DO NOT HAVE A FUCKING GENDER!!!!

I don't understand why woman push to be equal with men. But that could just be my beliefs from growing up with old fashioned morals. Imo men will always be more superior and no amount of badgering on about will change it.

That has absolutely nothing at all to do with morals.

YY to civility.

But a free exchange of opinions should be allowed.

Censorship (and its best friend, silencing by means of snide comments) is always a two edged sword. If the principle of it gets a foot in the door it's hard to stop it making itself at home and affecting all speech.

That has absolutely nothing at all to do with morals.

That statement shows how much preaching has gone on to cement the idea that the hierarchical arrangement of society is the right one. Preaching by religious authorities and domestic authorities alike.

HermoineMakePeace babies don't have a gender, these parties (or reveals) also use the ridiculous blue/pink shit too. It's 2019, can we please just stop. I hate them and hate that all women are expected to accept this shit without having an intelligent conversation about the repercussions of this kind of twattery.

@WeedsAndMoss There is really no need to be so aggressive. It alienates people. How do you expect to engage all women in the debate if you attack them like that? You’re not educating them as to the issues, you are just being nasty.

PS: I’m not talking about myself here, I’ve never had a gender scan/gender reveal party. It’s pisses me off and I am a long-time feminist.

Ya'all need to get out more

I don't get why there's a war? What are women fighting for now? If it's the trans debate then that doesn't affect me there's none in my community.

The debate will affect you because it's spilling over into all areas of life.

And as for why women are still fighting - what about the two women a week who are murdered by men? The women who are paid less than men? The girls who are taken abroad for female genital mutilation? The girls who are taken abroad for forced marriages? The girls who are routinely aborted because their family culture demands boys? Can you really not think of a single reason why women are still fighting?

There is really no need to be so aggressive

Ahh tone policing. I actually think it’s completely reasonable for women to be angry about the current shitshow that’s going on with women’s rights. When organisations like Pride and Women’s March start ejecting lesbians; when Amnesty International starts using gender instead of sex; when midwives are trained to say “pregnant person” instead of woman - I’d say some anger is justified

I’m fucking furious.

@SmileEachDay, that’s as maybe. But there’s no need to take it out on other women who know no better. If you want to educate them on the issues, then fine. But no need to bully and humiliate them with sneery remarks about their reveal parties.

weeds didn’t bully or humiliate anyone. She made a comment that displayed her frustration within the context of a discussion about gender/sex.

You are tone policing. That’s something that has been done to women since the dawn of time. “Be nice, women”

@SmileEachDay I wasn’t referring to anyone in particular.

@WeedsAndMoss There is really no need to be so aggressive. It alienates people. How do you expect to engage all women in the debate if you attack them like that? You’re not educating them as to the issues, you are just being nasty

Yes, you were.