To be bored of the ‘it’s not gender it’s sex’ posts?

[HermioneMakepeace]

Seriously. Every time someone uses the word ‘gender’ this happens. Gender reveal parties, gender scans, etc. Everyone knows what they mean. Why nitpick and derail the thread?

The dictionary definition of gender is,

either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones.

It says ‘especially when’, not ‘only when’. IMO gender is a completely acceptable alternative to sex. And an easier term to use as it does not flag on work computers.

Does anybody else agree or AIBU?

Makeup? As in cosmetics? Well I'm sure both genders use cosmetics.

Also they are working towards providing free sanitation products.

@DramaRamaLlama But doesn’t the insistence that sex and gender are the same thing, ie determined at conception and unchangeable, help the argument rather than harm it?

No - your gender (in a societal sense) is not determined at conception. I've just Googled "gender" and the Oxford dictionary definition you've quoted is the only thing on the front page that conflates gender and sex; the rest define gender in terms of roles, norms, and expressions, which is the generally accepted use.

I do agree that piping up with "you mean a sex reveal!" apropos of nothing is a bit unnecessary, but as a wider conversation, it's critical that we understand the difference between the two terms.

Access to abortion, discrimination at work based on pregnancy and motherhood, etc = sex-based women's issues, nothing to do with gender.

Is it wrong to presuppose that your child will be heterosexual? Vast majority of the time they will be. But then some would say assume nothing and let time tell.

I think gender is a bit like that. Using sex and gender interchangeably presupposes that your male child will be a boy/man and your female child will be a girl/woman. And 99% of the time they will be. But maybe it is best not to assume this and let time tell.

So in otherwords, best to use sex and refer to sex only, and assume nothing about what the gender will be. And that includes not using sex and gender interchangeably.

But there is no need to be impolite about it.

Because you are not finding out if your child is ever going to wear a princess dress. You are finding out if the child will be part of the class of humans who might gestate young, setting your child up for a lifetime of oppression, discrimination, and threats of violence.

Conflating sex and gender is an obfuscation that makes it harder to fight societal discrimination.

As an aside, has anyone asked any of the TRA’s what SEX they are. And, if so, what did they say?

I actually spoke to an influential person at my work to INSIST that we use the term sex instead of gender. She had a think about it and decided I was right, and that it would henceforth be added to our house style guide.

I was pretty fucking proud of that TBH so I think YABU!

Well done @ContessaIsOnADietDammit ! Incidentally, is it a multiple choice question and, if so, what are the options?

@DramaRamaLlama Awww, you really do put the Drama into everything don't you xx

Just here to wait for Sexnotgender
But yes, boring but true I guess 🤷🏼‍♀️

Being rude at someone’s party is unnecessary OP and I would consider it ungracious to correct the hosts language.

Sex and gender mean different things and deliberate conflation of these terms is causing women’s rights and protections in law to be eroded.

So one day that baby’s right to a life lived fully, might well hinge on how we deal the second point. I guarantee it won’t give a crap about someone being nit picky at its ‘blue or pink cake’ cutting.

So on balance YABU.

I imagine many people are bored with the consistent misuse of the incorrect terminology especially when it relates to such a contentious current issue. Why use the wrong term and say ‘well everyone knows what it means’. Just use the right term.

Just use the right term.

But ‘gender’ once was the right term. Only later did the definition hinge more on what people’s identify as.

YANBU. Correct someone on terminology on MN in any other context and people tell you that language evolves, you're being horrible, you're being pedantic, and the chances are you'll get deleted. Yet somehow none of that applies for this particular one.

Gender has never been the right term. Never, in the entire history of human existence, either before or since scans and prenatal testing, has the gender of a a baby ever been “revealed”. It has always been the case that the sex of the baby has been observed and recorded.

But ‘gender’ once was the right term. Only later did the definition hinge more on what people’s identify as

Simply not true.

It was always ‘sex’ on forms and in use until a fake gentility meant people started using the word gender. I remember coming across it first in the US and assumed it was because the religious conservatives didn’t want to say out loud anything dirty or rude. My DS when he was in year 5 stopped saying ‘sex’, he’d had some sex education at school and was mortified. He had to say ‘sex’ as he did Latin and it means six in Latin.

My personal experience of filling in many forms in 40+ years of teaching, and life in general is that what BigGreenOlives says is so. Sex was the M/F question on forms, then gender queasily emerged as sex became identified with the sexual act.

It is certainly an example of the mutability of language, but does not mean that the two words are interchangeable, and I would argue that in the current climate, where women's rights are being undermined.

I found this:

If you research the etymology of the word gender you discover that the word gender, up until the 1970's in academia, and up until the 2010's in the general populace, had an identical meaning to sex. Gender meant sex. Gender was used in writing and conversation in preference to the word sex, because sex also meant sexual intercourse. So to prevent confusion and so as to not evoke the thought of sex, the word gender was used. Gender meant "sex and I don't mean fucking". This meaning of gender originated back in the 17th century if I recall correctly.

In the 1970s, certain non-scientific branches of academia invented an entirely new concept and attached the label "gender" to it. The concept was that the way one presents themselves in society is "gender". This historically has never been the meaning of gender. The public at large continued to use gender in the original meaning, as you will see with official forms asking for 'gender'.

In the 2010s this new meaning of gender leaked out of academic circles and into the general vernacular. But it is a concept that is entirely the invention of left-leaning academics, cross citing each other repeatedly in echo chamber journals.

Would you care to cite your source, Hermione?

Oh, I see, some random poster on Hacker News.

I think s/he is right though.

Yep. The trouble is that if you study sociology or gender studies , you tend to get very bogged down in these concepts, don't you. And get offended when the rest of the world goes on using various terms in the same way they always did...

Same with most disciplines, incl. ones like law. I have given up correcting people who say, for example, "I don't own my home. The bank does!" This is technically untrue in my jurisdiction but who fucking cares, I know what they mean.

Exactly. In lay terms ‘gender’ can mean ‘sex’.

It can. I also assume a lot of people associate it with language-learning, e.g. What gender is "gare", the word for train station in French? (Answer... of course it's fucking feminine, la gare, with masculine trains ramming into it all day long.)

Sex is still a better word for forms, but I am never going to hassle some pregnant woman about what she calls one of those idiotic parties.

Yep. The trouble is that if you study sociology or gender studies , you tend to get very bogged down in these concepts, don't you. And get offended when the rest of the world goes on using various terms in the same way they always did

I agree, but here the OP is objecting to people voicing an opinion on a thread, which they're entitled to do. In this particular instance the use of gender/sex to frame the current issues about women's rights means that it's an area that's well worth keeping to the fore.