Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be bored of the ‘it’s not gender it’s sex’ posts?

193 replies

HermioneMakepeace · 26/05/2019 00:11

Seriously. Every time someone uses the word ‘gender’ this happens. Gender reveal parties, gender scans, etc. Everyone knows what they mean. Why nitpick and derail the thread?

The dictionary definition of gender is,

either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones.

It says ‘especially when’, not ‘only when’. IMO gender is a completely acceptable alternative to sex. And an easier term to use as it does not flag on work computers.

Does anybody else agree or AIBU?

OP posts:
Moralitym1n1 · 26/05/2019 12:12

I agree gender used to be used to mean sex - it doesn't now though.

On one hand it's understandable that people who aren't very aware of if involved in the trans 'issue' would continue using it; however that is ignorance of what is happening in the world to some extent.

Moralitym1n1 · 26/05/2019 12:12

*aware of or involved in

HumberElla · 26/05/2019 12:14

Lucymegan can you explain why you think that? I’m genuinely interested to know.

Feminists have generally been at the forefront of carving our rights for minorities as well as for women. It’s typical for women on FWR to campaign for social justice issues across many areas.

Why do you feel so strongly that this should be prevented?

LolaSmiles · 26/05/2019 12:15

RiversDisguise
Of course TRAs will have an issue with it. It's a group of women saying enough is enough and calling TRAs out on their agenda.

I know my personal position may be more liberal than some on FWR, but they absolutely deserve the space to speak and debate freely. Personally, I find it hilarious that a group with a huge amount of funds and power (and i'd love to know who is backing the TRA movement) are driven to distraction by the idea of a few women chatting online. Grin

HumberElla · 26/05/2019 12:24

As an aside, it was posts like that from FuckIt and lucy that made me want to go over to FWR and poke around in the first place!

lucymegan · 26/05/2019 12:24

@HumberElla I'm a traveller. Woman's rights don't really affect me. I live in a community where men go to work. Boys climb trees and do sports. Women stay home and raise the kids,cook and clean. Girls wear pink and boys wear blue.
We all know the difference between gender and sex. We don't need it pushed down our throats. I say gender scan, gender reveal because that's what it's always been called. I know to put female as sex on a form. I don't need anyone correcting me about me saying gender. I know the difference. It just sounds better.

feelingverylazytoday · 26/05/2019 12:39

lucymeghan so you may be happy in that culture. Others might not be. Why shouldn't they have access to feminist opinions and information?

HumberElla · 26/05/2019 12:40

Thank you for responding lucymegan that’s really interesting. I think you as a traveller will have a very different perspective on this than a Gorger would.

I had thought your response agreeing with Fuckit was about shutting down the feminist section on Mumsnet. I think maybe your comment was more in response to the OPs post about language (sex v gender)?

ControversialFerret · 26/05/2019 12:56

Although even if I was correct in that interpretation, you can still argue that they are wrong in inferring trans in others, especially in young people, from atypical behaviour. Let people work out their gender for themselves.

I agree with the principle of let people work out their gender for themselves, but would caveat that if gender stereotypes are causing harm (which they can and do) then why not work to deconstruct them? That, in a nutshell, is my biggest issue with much of the trans ideology at the moment. It suggests that discomfort with being gender non-confirming is a medical issue. Surely the answer to being a boy who likes dolls and 'girly' things, is to say that it's fine and kids should be able to play with what they want? Instead of giving life changing, untested, medicines to children - children! - in an attempt to 'cure' the fact that they have been 'born in the wrong body' and turning them into lifelong patients?

I have yet to meet a single person who is gender conforming. I know women who have long hair, wear high heels, make-up, enjoy cooking and cleaning and who go rally driving and play in 5-a-side teams. I know men who work in traditionally male jobs such as builders and plumbers who have well researched skin care routines and spend more on their hair care and colouring in a month than I do in a year! I have long hair but never wear skirts or dresses. I sometimes wear make-up but never wear high heels. I love dressmaking but also enjoy getting the chainsaw out in the garden. I took my husband's name when we married but I am the main earner and he does more housework than I do.

We are all different. Why on earth aren't we celebrating those differences and saying that actually they reflect the vast and diverse and fascinating things that humans can be and do, instead of using it as a tool to stick people into a box? It's an irony of the trans debate at the moment that I have never understood.

RussianSpamBot · 26/05/2019 16:28

Unsurprisingly, the anti-trans lobby are reliant on emotional appeals instead of actually looking at the facts of the situation.

Pot kettle black.

Trans woman have been accessing spaces designed to support vulnerable women for years, and this includes rape crisis centres and domestic abuse shelters. So why does the anti-trans lobby insist on pretending this is a new phenomenon?

Women wanting to protect our sex based rights aren't anti-trans, and we're not suggesting it's new either.This is a bullshit argument.

It’s like you’ve all woken up to the fight you think you’re having a decade too late. People have been entitled to use the bathrooms / changing rooms etc of the gender the identify as since the 2010 equality act, and they’ve never had to prove they’ve legally changed gender to be able to do so.

About the only reasonable point you have made in this thread. Lots of us did wake up to this far too late. Although doubtless the likes of you would've been gaslighting the shit out of us whenever we'd done it.

Now let’s look at the real facts about rape, shall we?

90% of rapes are committed by rapists who are known to the victim before the rape occurs. Not by scary trans women hiding in bathrooms. By husbands, boyfriends and friends known to the victim.

Ah, so we don't need to worry about policies that make it much easier for those males who want to assault and perv on women unknown to them then? Righty ho. Totally logical argument there.

Incidentally, if you're a woman in a prison and a bepenised person claiming to be a woman assaults you, odds are that would fall into the category of known rapists.

If you really cared about protecting women from rape you would be vociferous about the 90% of them that are acquaintance rapes. You wouldn’t be focusing on the infinitesimally tiny fraction of the remaining 10% that are committed by trans women, and you wouldn’t be inventing the outright lie that women are in more danger of being raped as a result of trans rights. The only reason you’re pretending that they are is because this isn’t about rape at all, or even about women’s rights - it’s about your desperate attempts to find a justification for your bigotry.

This is another foolish argument. Talking about the dangers that self ID poses to biological women doesn't say anything about what a woman might be doing to address other threats to women. This is how women like Julie Bindel have done more to protect women than pretty much any handmaiden transactivist koolaid quasher, and are able to have a record like this whilst also upholding our sex based rights in respect of allowing penis people access. Because it's two sides of the same coin.

I’m leaving this thread now because it doesn’t do my mental health any good to fight with trolls, liars and manipulators. But I want you to know that I’m not fooled for a second by your attempts to hide your prejudice behind concern for women, and I am disgusted that you would use and manipulate the experiences of rape victims in this way. It’s a serious indictment of your character that you are willing to do so.

I hope you do leave, as your contributions have been as grotesque as they are hypocritical. But for the benefit of others reading, let's summarise. You are trying to use the fact that most rapes are perpetrated by people the victim knows to try and downplay a clear and massive risk, because it goes against your belief system. You are literally using rape to try and make a political point, one that gaslights us and makes us all less safe. This could hardly be more disgusting.

SmileEachDay · 26/05/2019 19:00

I'm a traveller. Woman's rights don't really affect me. I live in a community where men go to work. Boys climb trees and do sports. Women stay home and raise the kids,cook and clean

lucy - when you say women’s rights don’t affect you, do you mean you are happy with the roles within your community or that you get no choice so there isn’t any point in trying to change things?

I’m curious about why, either way, you think the feminist board should be got rid of.

lucymegan · 26/05/2019 19:19

when you say women’s rights don’t affect you, do you mean you are happy with the roles within your community

Yes that's exactly it.

I don't understand why woman push to be equal with men. But that could just be my beliefs from growing up with old fashioned morals. Imo men will always be more superior and no amount of badgering on about will change it. The constant flow of women that comment "it's sex not gender" just sound a little crazy to me. Yep I know it's sex not gender but I will keep referring to it as gender because I want to. All of the list of reasons of why you should call it sex doesn't benefit me so I'm not bothered about the reasons. I'm not a feminist and don't want to be preached too.

mathanxiety · 26/05/2019 19:26

Lucymegan, it's not just feminism that makes women insist on using the correct terms.

Would you call a table a chair?

But from a feminist point of view, I hope you are aware that the way things are in the Traveler community is the result of a good deal of overt preaching from not too long ago, and the way they are maintained now is also the result of a good deal of both preaching - in the form of conditioning and verbalising of disapproval of women who want something different - and also the denying of any alternative (typically, Traveler teens do not leave school with the sort of qualifications that allow work that could be self supporting).

BarbaraofSevillle · 26/05/2019 19:35

We all know the difference between gender and sex

I'm not sure that the collective 'we' does because I constantly notice the word gender when they mean sex, like on the driving licence application online form. Gender is not a synonym or polite word for sex these days.

There's some regulations I use at work where women need special consideration to protect them from a hazardous substance if they become pregnant, and it mentions a mix of sex and gender, even when the provisions are solely there for women, as defined by sex.

There's numerous numerous examples once you start to notice and it's not just the 'gender scan/reveal' type, which is an extra ridiculous conflation these days because those who believe in gender would argue that you can't tell by looking anyway.

SmileEachDay · 26/05/2019 19:38

Imo men will always be more superior and no amount of badgering on about will change it

I don’t know what you mean by superior - from your description of the traditional roles it sounds as though it is the women who keep homes running and who raise the next generation. That feels important to me.

mathanxiety · 26/05/2019 19:40

...the 'gender scan/reveal' type, which is an extra ridiculous conflation these days because those who believe in gender would argue that you can't tell by looking anyway.

YY to the irony.

CitadelsofScience · 26/05/2019 19:46

lucy could you expand on this please?

Imo men will always be more superior and no amount of badgering on about will change it.

ControversialFerret · 26/05/2019 20:00

All of the list of reasons of why you should call it sex doesn't benefit me so I'm not bothered about the reasons. I'm not a feminist and don't want to be preached too.

Lucy correct me if I'm wrong (which is entirely possible!) but in Travelling culture girls are chaperoned until they are married - if there is 'dating' it's in groups and sex before marriage would be a no-no.

With this in mind, if you were taking your teenage daughter to the Dr for an intimate exam and asked for a female healthcare worker, would you be happy with someone who was obviously male but who claimed to be a woman?

If you decided to allow your children to join a school trip away, on the basis of single sex sleeping arrangements, would you be happy with a - self-identified - transgirl, with intact penis, sleeping unsupervised in the same room?

lucymegan · 26/05/2019 20:39

@ControversialFerret

correct me if I'm wrong (which is entirely possible!) but in Travelling culture girls are chaperoned until they are married - if there is 'dating' it's in groups and sex before marriage would be a no-no.

No their not chaperoned and datings not in groups. The no sex before marriage is true though.

With this in mind, if you were taking your teenage daughter to the Dr for an intimate exam and asked for a female healthcare worker, would you be happy with someone who was obviously male but who claimed to be a woman?

I'd be happy with male or female. A doctors a doctor.

If you decided to allow your children to join a school trip away, on the basis of single sex sleeping arrangements, would you be happy with a - self-identified - transgirl, with intact penis, sleeping unsupervised in the same room?

That wouldn't happen because I've never allowed my children to spend nights away with schools.

This is what I'm saying. The whole debate doesn't affect me so their for I have no issue.

There's mixed sexed toilets in my daughters secondary school. But there's also girls and boys toilets so I can't even get wound up over that.

ControversialFerret · 26/05/2019 21:01

Lucy so if your DD went into the girls loos would you be happy with the prospect of boys in there? Ditto her changing rooms for PE or swimming?

Moralitym1n1 · 26/05/2019 21:12

Superior.

They're just a version of us with a y chromosome that turns on testosterone; everything that does anything in the human body is in the X chromosome.

We're more intelligent on average.

We fought to overcome and boxes they put us in due to lower physical strength and child bearing and we succeeded. To incredible levels. Until Teresa May resigned women were leading every political party in power in the UK. Angela Merkel, Christine Laguarde, every ordinary woman out there getting educated, working, owning property, running their lives ... more women than ever out earn their husbands if they're married. Given half a chance, there is no stopping us.
Men are the more naturally criminal, more naturally violent, more naturally sex oriented of the two sexes. Every crime statistic demonstrates that. Superior?

nolongersurprised · 26/05/2019 21:19

But from a feminist point of view, I hope you are aware that the way things are in the Traveler community is the result of a good deal of overt preaching from not too long ago, and the way they are maintained now is also the result of a good deal of both preaching - in the form of conditioning and verbalising of disapproval of women who want something different - and also the denying of any alternative (typically, Traveler teens do not leave school with the sort of qualifications that allow work that could be self supporting).

I suppose it’s “each to their own”. Feminism and women’s rights may not seem relevant when you’re entrenched in rigid gender roles and are poorly educated and your aspirations for your daughters are merely for variations of the same.

OunceOfFlounce · 26/05/2019 21:38

I'm bored of people not getting why it's important.

lucymegan · 26/05/2019 21:47

I suppose it’s “each to their own”. Feminism and women’s rights may not seem relevant when you’re entrenched in rigid gender roles and are poorly educated and your aspirations for your daughters are merely for variations of the same.

My point exactly.

BobLemon · 26/05/2019 21:51

Yep. Me too. Have a YANBU vote.

Swipe left for the next trending thread