To be bored of the ‘it’s not gender it’s sex’ posts?

[HermioneMakepeace]

Seriously. Every time someone uses the word ‘gender’ this happens. Gender reveal parties, gender scans, etc. Everyone knows what they mean. Why nitpick and derail the thread?

The dictionary definition of gender is,

either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones.

It says ‘especially when’, not ‘only when’. IMO gender is a completely acceptable alternative to sex. And an easier term to use as it does not flag on work computers.

Does anybody else agree or AIBU?

It is fair to say lay people have used them interchangeably, but isn’t that part of the problem? It’s a bit 1984, language is control and as long a people are conditioned to think gender and sex are the same then they don’t challenge the events that are unfolding where we are being asked to believe they are really the same. If everyone points out to everyone that they are not the same and takes back the basic constructs of the language then it is a tool for people to be able to open their eyes and think critically about these issues. This isn’t the most eloquent explanation, but I hope you get what I mean.

In feminism, there is an awful lot of educated, middle-class women sneering at less educated working class women. And unfortunately these types of posts correcting people on the proper use of gender come across as unnecessarily condescending. If you want to educate people on the issues, then do so. But please... no need to be so patronising and unpleasant.

Jessica Yaniv who sued various beauticians in Canada for not wanting to provide a Brazillian wax to someone with male genitalia (apologies I don't have a share token for the article). Googling the name provides much further interesting content about this individual and alleged behaviour.

The Vancouver Rape Relief and Women's Shelter was de-funded by the city because it is not trans-inclusive. This follows a law suit (which was unsuccessful) which was launched by Kimberley Nixon, a transwoman who had applied to the shelter to work as a rape counsellor. The shelter declined the application on the basis that due to the vulnerability of the women seeking the service, it would be reasonable to ensure that counsellors were female as dealing with male-bodied individuals could cause victims further distress.

Hampstead Women's Pond is now trans-inclusive, meaning anyone identifying as a woman can use it. This not only has implications for women's safety (link to Times article on single sex vs unisex and women's safety)), but also for religious women who cannot swim in mixed facilities. Orthodox Jewish women are due to protest these changes.

It should be noted that the survey results which prompted the change at Hampstead, was run by Edward Lord of City of London Corporation. Out of the c.40K responses received, only 21,191 were found to be "valid".

that allowing males to access spaces where women are vulnerable isn't going to increase rape and sexual assault.

Unsurprisingly, the anti-trans lobby are reliant on emotional appeals instead of actually looking at the facts of the situation.

Trans woman have been accessing spaces designed to support vulnerable women for years, and this includes rape crisis centres and domestic abuse shelters. So why does the anti-trans lobby insist on pretending this is a new phenomenon?

It’s like you’ve all woken up to the fight you think you’re having a decade too late. People have been entitled to use the bathrooms / changing rooms etc of the gender the identify as since the 2010 equality act, and they’ve never had to prove they’ve legally changed gender to be able to do so.

Now let’s look at the real facts about rape, shall we?

90% of rapes are committed by rapists who are known to the victim before the rape occurs. Not by scary trans women hiding in bathrooms. By husbands, boyfriends and friends known to the victim.

If you really cared about protecting women from rape you would be vociferous about the 90% of them that are acquaintance rapes. You wouldn’t be focusing on the infinitesimally tiny fraction of the remaining 10% that are committed by trans women, and you wouldn’t be inventing the outright lie that women are in more danger of being raped as a result of trans rights. The only reason you’re pretending that they are is because this isn’t about rape at all, or even about women’s rights - it’s about your desperate attempts to find a justification for your bigotry.

I’m leaving this thread now because it doesn’t do my mental health any good to fight with trolls, liars and manipulators. But I want you to know that I’m not fooled for a second by your attempts to hide your prejudice behind concern for women, and I am disgusted that you would use and manipulate the experiences of rape victims in this way. It’s a serious indictment of your character that you are willing to do so.

And for people like me who have been activists for a long, long time, protesting section 28, marching at pride, campaigning for same sex marriage and the right to adopt, equality of the age of consent and recognition of homophobia as a hate crime, it's quite frightening to be told that we are bigoted for believing that males and females are biologically different and that gender is a nasty and harmful load of bullshit that needs to be ignored.

Is a particular sex or particular gender that is the victim of rape Cariadne?

Should people like Christopher Hambrook be allowed to enter women’s refuges still?

torontosun.com/2014/02/26/predator-who-claimed-to-be-transgender-declared-dangerous-offender/wcm/fc2c70f0-b1a1-41e2-85db-bec9d0012ce5

It’s like you’ve all woken up to the fight you think you’re having a decade too late. People have been entitled to use the bathrooms / changing rooms etc of the gender the identify as since the 2010 equality act, and they’ve never had to prove they’ve legally changed gender to be able to do so.

Exactly.

The live issue now is the self ID proposal. So any Tom, Dick or Harry can say ‘hey I am a ladie’ and access women only spaces. The current requirement to prove they have legally changed gender is considered to be a kind of safety valve limiting access to the genuine cases. Nobody is saying Trans are a threat but men who will take advantage of the new rules to prey on women. Pretenders if you will. At least this is how I think the real issues present themselves.

@ControversialFerret These things are truly terrible. I feel like we are going to be fighting a war. All the things that women up to 50 years ago fought for are being lost. I think we need to organise. Maybe there’s even a case to bring Spare Rib back.

But I don’t see any of this happening. All I see is a bunch of sneery women humiliating pregnant women over scans and parties. It’s quite horrible actually.

Trans woman have been accessing spaces designed to support vulnerable women for years, and this includes rape crisis centres and domestic abuse shelters. So why does the anti-trans lobby insist on pretending this is a new phenomenon

They aren't. Women have been allies and supporting transsexual women for decades, recognising that they are also vulnerable. The difference is that the current transgender debate focuses on the right to self-identify which clearly has implications for women's safety - and the safety of transsexual women who also use women's spaces. Nobody is suggesting that transwomen are predators and rapists. What people, including me, are trying to point out is that allowing self-identification opens the door to predatory men passing themselves off as transwomen to exploit a policy that is supposed to be non-discriminatory.

One of the things I find the most difficult about this debate, is that it has been so polarising and that people who have previously been allies have been split down the middle and huge chasms now exist. I truly wish there was a way to show that me and women like me are not the trans-hating harpies that activists seem to think we are. But I refuse to lie and say that I believe that human beings can change sex. I refuse to lie and say that I believe that gender identity should dictate the biological sex that you choose to join without any medical assessment or intervention. I refuse to lie and say that I support children being given life changing drugs without being fully aware of the consequences. I refuse to lie and say that I won't challenge statistics when their origins are dubious and misleading. I refuse to lie and I am genuinely sorry that this puts me at odds with people who I would have previously been allied with.

That’s bullshit Hermione. Over on FWR, there are threads with examples of women meeting, being active, protesting - Venice has been to Hampstead Ponds - petitioning, emailing MPs, etc etc etc. It’s happening. And every now and again someone on AIBU will correct someone’s post to point out the importance of accuracy and not conflating sex and gender. If all you see is the latter, you’re not looking hard enough.

@NotBadConsidering FWR is not accessible for a lot of women. It is quite intimidating.

YABU and ignorance is never a good look.

But I don’t see any of this happening. All I see is a bunch of sneery women humiliating pregnant women over scans and parties. It’s quite horrible actually.

I think there are two issues at play here. Firstly the conflation of 'gender' and 'sex' is critical to what's going on at the moment, and activists are acutely sensitive to it as a result. So "gender reveals" may attract some comments and criticism but it's unlikely to do with the concept of wanting to know whether you are carrying a boy or a girl (as many women for time immemorial have wanted to know!).

The second issue - and I think it's the one that's driving the observation - is the judgemental behaviour of people who think that having a "gender reveal" party is déclassé. That wanting everything in pink, or blue, and themed cakes etc., is cheap and a bit low rent. I don't think that those judgements have much to do with the current debate. It's more likely that the posters who would sneer will do so at any given opportunity - whether that's on a thread about loo brushes, fruit shoots or baby names. It just so happens that there's an opportunity to stick the boot in over what words mean.

It's better that the people who don't know that they are different revert to using sex than everybody use them interchangeably.

I suspect words like gender reveal come from American squeamishness towards using the word sex in family settings even though forms must have a sec room Sex:Male/Female?

The live issue now is the self ID proposal. So any Tom, Dick or Harry can say ‘hey I am a ladie’ and access women only spaces. The current requirement to prove they have legally changed gender is considered to be a kind of safety valve limiting access to the genuine cases. Nobody is saying Trans are a threat but men who will take advantage of the new rules to prey on women. Pretenders if you will. At least this is how I think the real issues present themselves.

^^ This is the issue.

Unisex changing rooms put women in danger

There often seems a lack of risk assessment and even announcements about changes.

Girl guides did a top down change and refused to see an potentail problems and got rid of leaders who voiced concerns.

FWR is not accessible for a lot of women. It is quite intimidating

I agree with this and I think it's a huge shame. I say it as an occasional contributor to FWR and I find the threads informative and the posters helpful and educational.

However, I took a long break from FWR (under my previous reg) because the debate had become so emotional and highly charged and I found it too much. So I can easily see how other posters would be completely put off from going there. It's a real catch-22 because the subject-matter is divisive and there is a clear FWR feminist position on it which may come across as quite combative to some, but when you get into the detail you find that the boards there are actually very supportive.

I don't know what the answer is.

Anyway, going back to the original question - I am not a huge fan of gender reveal parties and the like. But that's purely because I don't like the pink and blue princess and warrior type stereotypes that can often go hand-in-hand with them.

It was thread in chat around Jenni Murray that got me aware and lead me to go to FWR. However there are posters who object to this issue being in AIBU or chat - and for a while all threads around this subject seemed to get moved to FWR.

I'd tried FWR before and found it unwelcoming - I think that's changed as more people are going there.

FWR is not accessible for a lot of women. It is quite intimidating

Inaccessible as in, can’t click on it? There’s no excuse for not reading what’s going on, even if you think it’s inaccessible to join in. To say that all that “middle aged educated women” are doing is sneering at working class women about their language in AIBU is grossly offensive. This is all going on around you and you’re criticising the people who are making sure sex and gender aren’t conflated.

Plus the bright blue-coloured sponge cake just looks gack.

I get what you’re saying about it being nit-picky, OP. Of course there is a difference, but I wouldn’t be bothered to pull someone up for using gender in the example you have given. It’s irritating.

Tbh I think I’d be more irritated by someone having a ‘gender reveal.’ It’s tacky.

Cariadne and that highly emotive and rather rude post of yours, calling people names and hurling insults followed by a refusal to listen any further, is very typical of the people who want to mask the Self ID issue and shut down debate.

It hasn’t worked, this is a real public debate now, because most people can see that this isn’t about individuals. It’s not even about trans.

Our concern about a push to change the law so that it is impossible to define, protect and record sex as a characteristic. In medicine and healthcare, data collection, sports, prisons, rape and DV centres and on and on.

You’d have to be wilfully naive to think that men all not take advantage of this open door to getting into women’s spaces. You’re also admitting that women are not entitled to the rights and protections we have fought for and that are still so reluctantly given (pay, abortion rights, sanitary provision, representation in politics etc).

YABU.

"And for people like me who have been activists for a long, long time, protesting section 28, marching at pride, campaigning for same sex marriage and the right to adopt, equality of the age of consent and recognition of homophobia as a hate crime, it's quite frightening to be told that we are bigoted for believing that males and females are biologically different and that gender is a nasty and harmful load of bullshit that needs to be ignored."

Well, you are demonstrating prejudice with that last bit. By making the unproven blanket assumption about all trans people that they are only trans because of stereotypes such as liking blue or dresses.