To be annoyed by anti-Alabama posts?

[Bere111]

For context, I’m not prolife or pro choice...i wouldn’t have an abortion myself but I know that largely because I’ve never been in those desperate circumstances, so equally would never judge someone who had.
But all the anti-Alabama posts I’ve seen this week by women in the UK I find pretty ill informed.
For example, most not knowing it is still banned in Northern Ireland- part of the UK.
Also, people saying it’s ‘healthcare’ - I don’t believe this is true. I think it should be a crisis service, and making it sound routine trivialises it for me.
People saying it’s a women choice...again I don’t really think this is right. It’s a women choice to get pregnant or not get pregnant of course, but unless that girl or women fell pregnant through no choice of their own (in which can of course she should have access to abortion) I’m not sure once she’s actually pregnant she should then just be free to opt in or opt out.
I fell pregnant by accident with ds1, I was very newly married, had a well paid job and owned a house but was younger then I’d planned to be (27)- yet I had 3 people ask ‘god, what are you going to do???’ Which I found bizarre.
Most people’s opinion of abortion (including mine!) is formed on the fact that for those that are victims of rape or incest, or the health of the mother or baby is in question, or for example the mother is under 18 or even under 21, the time they need to have a safe solution to deal with an unplanned pregnancy.
However, I know that only about 3% of abortion happen for the reason above. The rest the nhs classify as lifestyle factors.
I’m sure many women may be masking issues by telling the motivating reason for the termination is just a lifestyle factor, but even so I still think many, many abortion take place because of poor planning and poor timing.
I’ve had 2 close friends have terminations in our late 20s, both of which went on to have children with the same partner a few years later. Although I supported their choice, I didn’t really understand it. They were both preoccupied with the idea that the timing wasn’t right- even though they wanted children and wanted children with the current partners.
I think we put far to much pressure of ourselves that we have to do things in the right order- so then when a pregnancy comes along that wasn’t on the timeline, we freak out- even if we are perfectly capable of parenting at that time.
I also think something most be going wrong with how we are approaching contraception, especially as the fastest growing segment of women needing abortion are 30+ and have ahead previous abortions. Can women not access contraception easily or could giving more education around ovulation cycles help this (this is pretty common place in countries like Germany from secondary school age, and women generally avoid sex when they’re ovulating- even when using another form of contraception)
I guess all in all I think it’s a really complex matter- and I don’t think we have it totally right in this country, and I find it a trivialisation to see my friends sharing handmaid tale’s pictures with ‘my body my choice’ tag lines...surely when a matter really is life or death, we shouldn’t simplify it as a women’s prerogative?
Or AIBU?

Calling that murder is a disgrace @klendraa

Yabu. It doesn't matter what reason a woman has for having an abortion. YOU are trivialising it by saying that things such as 'bad timing' should not be enough of a reason to not want to have a baby. Having had a child yourself, presumably you are aware of the immense difficulties and pressures it puts on women?
Believe me, Not a single woman I know has ever taken the decision to have an abortion lightly. You already said it yourself, you wouldn't have an abortion personally. Leave other woman out of your equation.

OP I think you are right. The problem is we are becoming a more polar society. All issues are either for or against with no place for nuance or discussion. Some of these polar extremes don’t even form a consistent viewpoint. As mentioned up thread, are radical pro choice supporters as pro euthanasia. Are any vegan or is it only animals that matter and not babies? I will be slated here of course because on mn only one polarised view on this topic is acceptable.

Just in response to general comments; rather then tagging individual ones...
I think people have totally missed the point of my post so I’m sorry for that, I also think many people haven’t even read my post and are just interpreting the title of the post.

Do I think abortion should be legal and accessible to all women? YES.

I don’t think anybody skips into hospital for an abortion, it’s a hard decision and a desperate decision whatever the reason.

My point was that 50 years ago (or 49 to be exact) the UK introduced legal access to abortion to stop back street abortions, to give hope to women subject to abuse, rape, incest, to give remedy to those manage complications in pregnancy, or those simply in situations where they couldn’t or didn’t want to carry on with an unwanted and unplanned pregnancy.

Is that still the landscape and the reality of abortion services, I don’t think so.

I’ve lived in Germany for a number of years, there approach to abortion is completely different - it’s more regulated, but still accessible. All women are refer to pre and post termination counselling. They have much lower rates of abortion- they also have much better access to sex educate, contraception, and far better better maternity regulations. In my mind this is is no coincidence.

YABU.

Lifestyle choices or not, if a woman feels she cannot cope with the responsibility of a child, then she should not be forced to carry that child to term.

Contraception can fail.

Finances can be tight.

Mental and emotional, as well as physical, health can mean that a woman is at risk from pregnancy and childbirth.

Yes, a baby could be put up for adoption - but that is even more heartbreaking than destroying a few cells which have no awareness of even being alive.

Very few women make the decision to terminate a pregnancy lightly.

Every child deserves to be eagerly awaited and welcomed into a loving home.

Woman's body, woman's decision.

@slashlover

You didn’t even answer my question. How far into a pregnancy does abortion become considered murder ? If I have an abortion at 9 months is totally acceptable because bodily autonomy ? Or at 8 months ?

I’m genuinely curious.

I would never call someone who had an abortion murder at all but I’m asking at what point does the unborn child become human enough for it’s termination to be seen as murder by pro-choicers ?

YABU and I say that as someone who felt pretty much forced into having an abortion and I still regret that decision. I also say it as someone that wouldn't be here because if my parents knew about my condition before my birth they wouldn't have continued with the pregnancy.

Despite all of that I'm a firm believer that abortions should be available to anyone who feels that they cannot go through with a pregnancy for whatever reason, and it's no one else's place to need to understand that reason.

I have seen quite a few opening posts like this recently which appear to originate from those who are opposed to pro choice. Despite OP saying that he or she is neither pro or anti abortion, the comments are identical to those seen recently by anti choice people in the recent debate in Ireland. I wouldn't even bother to feed the troll in this case.

I would never call someone who had an abortion murder at all but I’m asking at what point does the unborn child become human enough for it’s termination to be seen as murder by pro-choicers ?

Never, because abortion does not fit the legal definition of murder.

I would never call someone who had an abortion murder at all but I’m asking at what point does the unborn child become human enough for it’s termination to be seen as murder by pro-choicers ?

Not at 6 weeks, that’s for sure.

We have a cut off of 24 weeks in this country, because before that time a foetus isn’t viable (there might be extremely rare occasions where birth before this date might lead to a surviving baby but these are vanishingly rare and usually associated with severely diminished quality of life for the child).

I'm prochoice but I still think abortion is very sad and should be a last resort - not the first thing that people jump to just because they weren't expecting to be pregnant, and certainly not something that other women should try and pressure you into. That really disgusts me. People say it's the woman's choice, but it seems like a woman choosing not to have an abortion is often judged very harshly by other women. At least on MN, anyway...

I completely agree with this. Choice means choice in all circumstances.

For a couple of years now I've thought that the 'good' abortion (for rape survivors or when the health of the mother was in danger) vs 'bad' abortions (for social reasons) that we've set up would come back to bite women in the bum. And I think that's what Alabama really shows us: men will stop at nothing to control women's bodies, they aren't making distinctions between the causes of abortions, they are just making incubators.

We need to simplify: as early as possible, as late as necessary, your body, your choice. We need to stop talking about cause.

The nhs put many conditions on couples wanting funded ivf treatment, their told to loose weight, gain weight, refused if they’ve conceived with other partners sometimes, refused if they smoke, refused if they’ve had a previous alcohol problem.
It like we are happy to be selective when we will assist in creating life, but not happy to be selective when the choose is to end a life.

You did mention the cost to the NHS. You made the point that the NHS is selective when it comes to funding "creating life" but is happy to fund women choosing to "end a life" (not that a clump of cells is "a life") so you're talking about financial priorities. Of course your point makes no sense whatsoever. Fertility treatment and abortion are not comparable, either in terms of cost or complexity/efficacy of the process itself.

Alabama ranks 50th for education and no higher than 48 in all other measures. There is almost no social safety network. The women in poverty in Alabama are in no way comparable to the women in Northern Ireland. At there a safety net of sorts exists. Take a drive through rural Alabama and see the conditions some of those people live in. No health care. No teeth. The poorest standard of education in the Us. They live in little more than shacks. There are few jobs and almost no workers rights. It ain't Northern Ireland!

They passed this law to get the Christian Right to froth over a single issue so they can ignore the fact that the state is failing so many on every single level measurable. They done this so it will be challenged and brought up to the SC because they no believe they have the votes to overturn Roe V. Wade. It's a disgrace on every level and it goes much deeper than simply abortion.

Tbh, why is another woman’s choice yours, or anyone else’s, business? Whether they’re irresponsible or not, what possibly impact does that have on your life? It’s not for you to understand or not, it’s absolutely nothing to do with you.

NI is backwards as shit in this regard, so is Alabama. You can abhor the politics of both, it’s not either/or.

@notaclevername
Thanks for replying so you believe women can abort right up until they deliver ? Okay.

@HBStowe I actually get that.

Hmm quick search about abortion in Germany brought up this recent article - tip ‘enacted by the Nazis’ is generally not a great way of getting people on board with a law.

@handsoffmysweets

The adoption system isn’t overwhelmed it’s underwhelmed- there’s a huge shortage of children, particularly babies, needing adoptive homes.

The majority of adoptions in the UK are older children that have been passed in and around the care and foster system- that’s what overwhelms the system (these adoptions are more complex and need more support).
It’s no coincidence that we have one of the highest rates of abortion, and lowest rates of at birth adoption, in Europe.

I don’t blame women for aborting rather then adopting- I would do the same BUT don’t suggest that abortion eases pressure on an overwhelmed system. That’s rubbish.

Try telling parents that have spent close to a decade trying to adopt, that we as a country are overwhelmed with unwanted babies.

Your words OP..

"The references to Gilead I think are troubling because the handmaids are routinely raped and held prisons to be used as contraceptive vessel."

So essentially the exact same as women unable to access a termination as it is now illegal and subjected to forced pregnancies and births?! Voiding your own argument by the evidence you used in an attempt to back it up.

You are not only unreasonable, you are judgemental, ill-informed, anti-women's rights, prejudiced and ALL the other lovely qualities that your fellow pro-lifers possess. Don't kid yourself on that you aren't invested in either stance.

Some of your statements imply that you think access to abortion for certain social reasons should be restricted in the UK: is this your view? If so, then you are not “pro choice”.

In what ways is access to abortion in Germany “more regulated” than in the Uk?

I absolutely hate the fact that women use the phrase 'my body, my choice'. When in fact that is only half true. They are choosing to value their own life above that of another human being.

I think that pro-choice people are too quick to forget that the vast majority of abortuons performed, are purely due to lifestyle choices. I think this is completely and utterly disgusting. How can a woman value a job over a human life?

Another issue I have is that in order to have abortions, you are supporting the fact that there is a line, before which the baby is purely a mass, and after which it is a human life. How can you draw this line?

Human life begins at conception.

l’ve lived in Germany for a number of years, there approach to abortion is completely different - it’s more regulated, but still accessible. All women are refer to pre and post termination counselling. They have much lower rates of abortion- they also have much better access to sex educate, contraception, and far better better maternity regulations. In my mind this is is no coincidence

There is absolutely no difference between anything you say happens there to what happens here in the UK? We have all those things.

Do I think abortion should be legal and accessible to all women? YES.

I don't understand how you reconcile this with your statement that "It’s a women choice to get pregnant or not get pregnant of course, but unless that girl or women fell pregnant through no choice of their own (in which can of course she should have access to abortion) I’m not sure once she’s actually pregnant she should then just be free to opt in or opt out."

I also don't understand how you reconcile this with your apparently problem with understanding anti-Alabama posts. If you believe that abortion should be accessible to all women, how can you support a state that believes the reverse?