To cut my nose off to spite my face just to make a point? Work related.

[QueenofmyPrinces]

I’m feeling so torn about something that’s happening at work....

I’m a nurse and for the last 6 months I’ve been starting to implement a massive change to one of the services that we provide and it has got the potential to be something really amazing. It involves new policies being written, new care plans being created and it means giving some teaching to other members of staff and doctors - in other departments as well as my own. I’m doing it alongside my Manager but it’s my “baby” as such and implementing it and all the changes that go along with it is definitely above my pay grade. However, it’s something I’m really passionate about and so I have thrown myself into it.

A month or so ago there came an opportunity for a promotion so myself and two other nurses went for it. I was by far the most experienced and maybe I naively thought that all the work I’d been doing on the new project would earn me a step up the pay scale.

However, they gave the position to another nurse and although I really get on with him, he’s been qualified 10 years less than me, and is not particularly thought highly of by other staff in a professional capacity. As a person he’s a really nice guy, I socialise with him out of work sometimes with other colleagues and I generally have nothing against him.

I was understandably very hurt though when he got the job over me and although I know NHS interviews are points based and so he obviously said more buzz words in the interview than I did but it still feels so unfair.

My issue is that my Manager has been in touch to ask how far along I’ve gotten with implementing the new changes to the service that I’ve been working on and asking when we can meet up to discuss what my next steps are to getting the changes put into practice.

I honestly feel like telling her I’m done with it and that if I’m not deemed to be “senior staff material” then why should I be doing all this work for her benefit?

It sounds really petty I know. It just feels like I’m being taken advantage of and if there’s no reward or recognition for any of this work I’ve been doing then what’s the point?

I feel like telling her to have her newly appointed senior staff member do it because I don’t see why I should put myself out anymore (I know how childish I sound).

It’s so hard because it’s a project I’m passionate about but at the same time I just feel so angry.

My DH absolutely thinks I should tell them to shove it.

But am I cutting off my nose to spite my face by no longer doing something I’m passionate about just to make a point?

I don’t know. I feel confused and torn.

My manager got her Band 7 when she was 29 and the manager before her was 30.

All you have to do now to be a Band 6 is be qualified for two years and it baffles me.

When I was training to be a nurse the Sister’s were so well respected, they were seen as experienced and knowledgable nurses who had worked hard for their position. To be a Sister was seen as a huge deal and something to really aspire to.

These days it’s just not like that and its not right in my opinion.

There’s a Band 6 on another ward who failed her final placement as a student (her management placement) and had to re-do it. Yet here she is, two years later and a Band 6.

Like I say back in the day the Sisters were people to be respected and looked up to as a role model. I certainly don’t feel like that towards the majority of the Band 6s on my ward.

the more you post, the more it comes across that you don't understand the recruitment process & scoring system used in interviews.

Why don’t I?

Because you scored lower in interview than your colleague. That's why he got the job and you didn't.

You could be doing great at work, including your project, but if you don't perform as well at interview, you won't get the job.

Because you scored lower in interview than your colleague. That's why he got the job and you didn't.

I know he did and I know that’s why he got the job over me. I have also said I understand and accept that, but that it doesn’t mean the best person is always hired for the job.

In one way it’s a fair system and in another way it’s a flawed system.

Don't be silly & complete the project, it can go on your cv & give you plenty to talk about at your next interview. Brush up on your interview skills with your manager, if it's just dropping buzz words (I'm sure it's more than that) you won't have an issue.

But how else could you select a candidate? When I interview, it's candidates could be internal, external, known to me or not.

So the only fair way to do it is to ask the same questions to each candidate & score responses according to criteria. Sometimes you can get a bit more idea about a person through a presentation.

But all have to be equally treated & process has to be followed.

And I get that Prosecco, but anyone can read guidelines and policies, remember it all and reel it off at interview, but that it still doesn’t mean they’re the best person for the job.

For what other career does the interview not involve asking about the person’s experiences and knowledge and what they can bring to the role?

Maybe I am old fashioned but when it comes to nursing I think the persons clinical experience and knowledge, their personality, their skills, their passion and drive should play a large role in deciding whether they are worthy of a senior role or not.

Like I said, based on their interview process they have promoted an inexperienced nurse who does as little work as possible and isn’t particularly fussed about patient care.

I’m sorry, but in the nursing profession that is not the kind of person who should be given a senior role.

He’s a really nice, articulate gentleman so I can well imagine he “talked the talk” - maybe this job will be the making of him, who knows.

Sorry the promotion didn’t work out this time. I get your frustration. But if the promoted nurse did start to take the lead on the project how likely would that be to make you feel better? As you say it’s your baby. I would truck on with the project because if it’s a success then that’s something you could really talk up in the next interview. Presumably nursing is a line of work you plan to stay in. If you feel frustrated for a while that’s fair enough but if you become so disengaged you stop giving it your best that’s not going to benefit you in the long term.

The biggest and most common mistake is assuming you are the best person for the job because of length of service.
It just doesnt work like that !
There are lots of experienced, caring Band 5 nurses ,its whats expected of a senior Band 5 .
It wouldnt make you stand out over others.
Your experience and application just means you will be shortlisted.

A few things ring alarm bells with me particularly setting yourself as the only one who can look after a particular patient group
What happens if you leave/have a day off/ are on holiday ?
Very worrying to have the attitude that this is a good thing.It really isnt .

Everything you have posted screams "I" not "we" and a Band 6 is a leader and team player.
The interview process is points based to prevent discrimination and stamp out the "next in line " culture where awful people got jobs they just werent suited for just because they had been there for years.

It makes no different whether you are PT etc in the points based system .
They are not testing whether you are an experienced , caring nurse(minimim requirement) and they arent going to reward you for this by giving you a promotion
The questions in the interview are about a behaviour and skill set which is above that of a Band 5, critical thinking,crisis management and leading, managing and inspiring others.
They want to know what you are going to do when you are the most Senior Nurse covering several units at 2am and there is a crisis, they ask you this in an interview environment for a reason- to capture your response under pressure.
Whats your priority? How will you react ?Will your patients and staff be safe ?

Dont throw away your project, they will be watching to see how you behave after this set back and some one else will pick it up and get credit anyway.
Head up, behave professionally .
Dont slag off the other candidate-talking to other Band 6 is the minimum I would expect, why do you see this as a negative?

Ask to shadow a Senior, look up Trust priorities and behavioural standards.
Think about your attributes and negatives,what do you need to work on,what type of Leader are you ?
It really isnt a matter of being unfair.
Good luck OP

It’s not the best system, but it’s the one that’s there, if you want promotion you have to be able to get through the hoops. Lots you can do to improve your chances.

Was it a competencies based interview? Points awarded for answering with the competency skills relevant to the question asked? In which case it really is all about being totally familiar with the competencies for the grade and demonstrating this in aSTAR?SOAR response.

If not this. then ignore.

Meanwhile, dont give up your project, but do maybe think about looking elsewhere for promotion.

Nursing is notorious for things like this and it's terrible. I'm sorry.

It really isnt terrible Prequelle
Everything the OP is posting makes me think she hasnt got a clue about the Band 6 role !

I'd feel the same as you about it all OP. Their interview and recruitment methods need an overhaul.

Going forward, two posters have given you very good advice which you may have overlooked as you're focused on why you didn't get the promotion.

Can you write up a paper and get it published in a journal under your name before someone else takes your data and puts their name to it.

and

Also I was taught from someone with a similar experience any PFF’s put a footer on in light grey with your name, date and a version no - you can’t see it until it prints down.

I have heard of similar where DH works (local council). They have the points system, but if there is someone they want for the job, most departments fudge the points or try to lead the interview to get the points to get the person they want/the best person for the job.

Where DH is, they are strict on the points which has led to shocking hires - rather than have the person already covering that job, they have taken on people who 'talk the talk' but have no actual experience even though the jobs are IT based.

I can understand the frustration. Is there a chance that the work that you are currently doing may lead to a job? For example, once the project is implemented, will there be a specialist role needed to run it and they are holding back on you for the job because they want/know you will want that job. If they gave you this one you would then just apply for the new job and they would have to go through recruitment again.

I also work for NHS and its always the same.The people who are more experienced/qualified to do the job are always overlooked for those who interview better who may have no qualifications relating to the post at all.
I think its time the NHS overhaul their interview criteria so qualifications and experience outweigh who you know on the panel and what dept managers want (yes it does happen unfortunately )

Interviewing is a different skill from nursing. I know people who are great at their jobs, but interview badly and unfortunately it holds them back.

If the guy who got the job has been in post for 2 years cf your 10, it means he has more recent interview experience than you. Does it also mean this was your first interview in 10 years? I always find it takes a few goes to get back into the swing of it.

You need to practice being interviewed. Make a few applications to similar posts (perhaps even higher grade posts?) just for the experience of the process. Apart from a bit of time and effort, it won't cost anything.

What are you like at giving presentations? Perhaps that's something you could practice on friends?

Personally, I wouldn't give up your big project. It's a great thing to put on your CV.

I think the best thing is to understand that how good you are clinically or how well thought of you are or your experience has no bearing on whether you get the job. This is awful, and wrong, but is the way it is.

You need to get specific interview prep. If your Trust runs recruitment and selection study sessions and you can get on them then you can learn loads. In particular you can learn the hoops you need to jump through and the utter shite you need to say in order to pass the test.

Stressy
The Op being a good Band 5 doesnt mean she will make a good Band 6.
As I said previously the skills and experience she has got her short listed.
The interview questions are not about how good a band 5 she is -thats a given.
She wouldnt have been shortlisted otherwise.
Its a step up in role, taking on phenomenal responsibilty for several areas if she had bleep holding capacity, leading and decision making in the most difficult of circumstances.
Its a whole additional set of skills to learn and develop.
Just saying its unfair,Im an experienced Band 5 will not get you the job!

No, which is why I have advised her to get specific interview preparation as it absolutely will not get her the job.

I’m aware of the step up in role. Fair point, I should have said in my opinion it is unfair. The lack of progression for band 5s is one of the reasons nurses leave, although not the point of OP’s post it is something we need to address in the NHS if we will ever improve the retention rate.

Unfortunately competency and skills don’t stand for anything in our recruitment process. It’s points only.

Are you sure? Are you not being asked about the relevant competency requirements for the Grade 6 position?

You have to demonstrate that you understand and can demonstrate these competencies ( they will be detailed in a document somewhere) for the new role. Thats what the points are awarded for.

A few things ring alarm bells with me particularly setting yourself as the only one who can look after a particular patient group confused
What happens if you leave/have a day off/ are on holiday ?
Very worrying to have the attitude that this is a good thing.It really isnt

I absolutely don’t have the attitude that it’s a good thing that I tend to take on the care of these patients. It isn’t a good things at all, it’s an awful thing and it’s not right that the care these patients receive is dependent on whether I’m at work at that.

It’s because of that I’m implementing the change and training other staff - so that other people can competently care for these patients directly.

Thank you to everyone for all your advice by the way. I can’t keep up with the responses as I’m on a training day at work but reading them all is giving me lots to think about.

I think its time the NHS overhaul their interview criteria so qualifications and experience outweigh who you know on the panel and what dept managers want (yes it does happen unfortunately hmm)

It’s an ongoing joke on our ward that the managers know exactly who they are going to hire before the interviews even take place.

I think it would be a lot fairer if one of the interview panel was completely unrelated to the candidates (in a professional capacity) and whoever is hired would have no bearing on them or their department, because then it’s a completely third party assessment and points can’t be fudged.

At the end of the day, none of us know that the person who is employed because they got the most points, did in fact get the most points.

The two managers interview, they decide how many points the candidate deserved based on their answers and then they tally up the points at the end. This then tell the matron who got what points and she authorised their decision.

A couple of years ago two of my colleagues went for a Band 6
Interview which was purely based on question points and no interview.

One of the colleagues came out of her interview and was upset and told me she’d really struggled on one question, hadnt given a good answer and that on another question she’d actually had to pass on because she didn’t know what to say.

This colleague was given the promotion.

A few weeks later my manager was talking about the interviews and said that the colleague who’d gotten the promotion had done fantastic and got 57 points out of 60.

How that was possible when she passed on one question so the maximum she could have gotten was 55 if every other answer was perfect too, I don’t know.

My manager obviously wasn’t aware that the colleague had cried on my shoulder after the interview because of how badly it had gone.

That post was meant to say that my colleagues interview had been based solely on questions and points, and no presentation

Bad typo on my part