To cut my nose off to spite my face just to make a point? Work related.

[QueenofmyPrinces]

I’m feeling so torn about something that’s happening at work....

I’m a nurse and for the last 6 months I’ve been starting to implement a massive change to one of the services that we provide and it has got the potential to be something really amazing. It involves new policies being written, new care plans being created and it means giving some teaching to other members of staff and doctors - in other departments as well as my own. I’m doing it alongside my Manager but it’s my “baby” as such and implementing it and all the changes that go along with it is definitely above my pay grade. However, it’s something I’m really passionate about and so I have thrown myself into it.

A month or so ago there came an opportunity for a promotion so myself and two other nurses went for it. I was by far the most experienced and maybe I naively thought that all the work I’d been doing on the new project would earn me a step up the pay scale.

However, they gave the position to another nurse and although I really get on with him, he’s been qualified 10 years less than me, and is not particularly thought highly of by other staff in a professional capacity. As a person he’s a really nice guy, I socialise with him out of work sometimes with other colleagues and I generally have nothing against him.

I was understandably very hurt though when he got the job over me and although I know NHS interviews are points based and so he obviously said more buzz words in the interview than I did but it still feels so unfair.

My issue is that my Manager has been in touch to ask how far along I’ve gotten with implementing the new changes to the service that I’ve been working on and asking when we can meet up to discuss what my next steps are to getting the changes put into practice.

I honestly feel like telling her I’m done with it and that if I’m not deemed to be “senior staff material” then why should I be doing all this work for her benefit?

It sounds really petty I know. It just feels like I’m being taken advantage of and if there’s no reward or recognition for any of this work I’ve been doing then what’s the point?

I feel like telling her to have her newly appointed senior staff member do it because I don’t see why I should put myself out anymore (I know how childish I sound).

It’s so hard because it’s a project I’m passionate about but at the same time I just feel so angry.

My DH absolutely thinks I should tell them to shove it.

But am I cutting off my nose to spite my face by no longer doing something I’m passionate about just to make a point?

I don’t know. I feel confused and torn.

"..but my experience of the public sector was that it led to those who talked the talk being promoted, not those with experience, proven ability and willingness to go the extra mile.
That's why there are so many appalling managers in the public sector, and so many demoralised staff at lower levels in the hierarchy."
^This
Have a degree in Public Health and this is apparent even at degree level. It's about personality over ability unfortunately. Of course that doesn't mean you aren't nice/kind/someone people want to work with - it just means you didn't schmooz the right people

I'd try your luck elsewhere or you will find this keeps coming back to hurt you in different forms. Good luck.

This is so familiar and happens in public sector too. It really boils down to how much this project means to you on a personal level as to whether you continue. I have worked on a project for the last few years which is more work and responsibility than my colleagues while on the same pay point. I do it for personal development and job satisfaction and I love it.

But I understand how it sticks in your throat and how unfair it is. I have been through the competency based interview system which takes no account of your experience, knowledge or development and scores points if you give the right answer.

The person who scored highest is terrible at their job, does the minimum, has limited knowledge and does not support peers. The manager said that this person gave an exceptional interview giving the right answers time after time.

The role was withdrawn as the manager also knew that this person could not do most of the requirements of the actual job. However this manager was the exception, usually in this situation the person gets promotion which as a pp stated creates a public sector with a raft of inadequate managers with demotivated staff.

Maybe they thought the new position would take you away from the project.

imnotbent - the gentleman is a nice person but he’s a shocking nurse. He’s very lazy, does the bare minimum and doesn’t genuinely care for the patients. Nursing, in my eyes is a vocation whereas to him its just a job where he turns up, does as least work as he can get away with, and then goes home again.

He’s very good friends with two of the Band 6’s (they are friends with his wife) and general consensus is that he got a lot of coaching from them about how to give the perfect Band 6 interview.

They are obviously thrilled he got the job whereas the majority of the staff are not.

It’s going to be interesting to see how things turn out.

I feel for you op.
I'm not nhs and we have a very inexperienced male manager. He is not a leader and all the junior staff are sick and tired of having to pick up the slack.
Simple things such as avoiding dealing with complaints or unpleasant issues.
It really has an effect on everyone.
I also don't get this buzz word senario . In my job talking the talk is useless, actions are everything.

Did you ask for feedback on why you were not selected? Who were the recruiting managers - your current ones?

Understand your anger than someone you regard as performing badly was selected. Have been there and got that T-shirt more than once!

My solution has been work out what I wanted to do in my next role and actively pursue this; work on my interview technique. When I felt that the recruiting managers were crap, discriminated against PTimers (has happened to me loads) or saw me in a certain way and were unlikely to select me - I applied for roles with unknown line managers. The advantage of a large organisation is that there are lots of roles. I also prioritised money/opportunity over passion!

It’d be unprofessional to drop the current project because you were not selected. Different if you wish or need to stop for more legitimate reasons, for example, insufficient senior support or resources, or you’ve put in extra hours for a long time and there are still many, many months of work ahead and you can’t sustain it.

“by having the interview I wanted to see if I had it within me to get the promotion and that I would feel like I was valued by my managers”. Those were not reasonable expectations from an interview.

Of course you have it in you to be more senior - interviews don’t test that! They are a subjective hoop.

You’ve said you work PT - this is often a huge drawback when competing against full timers.

You too could seek coaching on interview skills from more senior colleagues.

Your last post sounds quite petty.

Is it possible they’ve not changed your role so you can finish the project? They must know you enjoy it. I’d say chat to your manager and carry on with the project.

I’m afraid they sound like absolutely typical band 6 interview questions. As PP have said, public sector interviews are about points and how well you can answer the questions asked using the buzzwords. They are not about how well you can do the job in question and are certainly not about how good a health professional you are.

Easy for me to say I know but I would at lest finish the project then look at how to answer the interview questions for the future.

For fairness, as long as you meet the criteria for experience then there is no advantage to length of service and how good you show that you are in practice. I personally think this obsession with fairness and transparency is incredibly unfair, especially having no advantage to length of service or knowing the actual job / area. It’s shit and unfair but it is how public sector works .

NHS manager here. I’ve not RTFT but I would absolutely not recommend withdrawing from the project now - that would be unspeakably damaging to your career prospects.

Is your current line manager a nurse? Or are you reporting to a non medic? If poss, seek an audience with the service manager. They’re often not involved with junior staff recruitment so wouldn’t have had any oversight but will be able to offer insight / some assurances re the future.

I’m sorry you feel like the process has failed you here but ultimately you are trying to improve the service for patients - I assume - so try to focus on this for now!

Is your current line manager a nurse? Or are you reporting to a non medic?

Yes she’s a nurse, as is the other manager who was on the interview panel. My manager who interviewed me is overseeing all the work I’m doing on my project so she knows how much work I’ve put in to it. The other Manager who was on the panel also knows about some of the work I’m doing as her department is also an area where the changes are going to be implemented. She hasn’t had any contact with me but she’s aware of the work I’m doing and that in the near future changes are going to be made regarding the way her nursing team and medical team are going to have to care for these set patients. Apart from knowing about this she hasn’t got any idea about my clinical experiences or abilities, she doesn’t know me at all really.

That’s new information about your manager being on the panel. Did you ask for feedback from her on why you were not selected?

It may be that, for whatever reason, your current manager is unlikely to promote you.

Hard work on a project in a current role may or may not be relevant to the selection criteria for another role/promotion.

That’s new information about your manager being on the panel

It’s not - I mentioned it a few pages back - or at least I thought I had?

She just told me that I didn’t get as much points as my other colleague. And I do aceept that - it just feels unfair that there’s no recognition for all the work I’m doing (which is ultimately for the benefit of the ward and will no doubt make the manager look good) but someone so less qualified, and not as good a nurse as me and other staff who applied for the job, gets the promotion.

I’m afraid you have summed up how public sector job selection works there OP. Don’t give up; your project sounds great and really worthwhile too.

You did mention it, which was part of the reason I suggested you look elsewhere; what with him being promoted and you having 2 managers who didn't appreciate you at interview... I personally (and it may be petty) would feel resentful in the coming months/years, especially whilst picking up his slack.

Yes, buzzword interviews are not helpful at all but the mentality of the workplace forgets very soon the hard work and dedication put in and we all know that appreciation are key to keep the good people working on such low pay. I'd probably try to get the project implemented if it is imminent but if it required 6+ months and is taking over a lot of your time I would look elsewhere.

I'd probably try to get the project implemented if it is imminent but if it required 6+ months and is taking over a lot of your time I would look elsewhere.

It’s being implemented in the next month but I predict a lot of teething problems, as with any new project) and it will take a lot of time I think to get all the staff trained and on board. As I said before, most people try to avoid these patients so I don’t think it will be too warmly received that the new treatment plan will require them to take on more contact with the patient and more responsibility for the outcomes .

It’s going to be a lot of work over the coming months and I envisage a lot of the problem solving and teaching will fall on my shoulders.

It does take up a lot of time and recently I have stayed behind late after a few shifts to work on it and the latest tasks that have been assigned to me will inevitably involve me having to work on it at home because there’s no chance of me getting the opportunity whilst at work.

Learn the rules of the game OP. - the man who got the job did in spite of you having more hands on experience.

Learn to market yourself properly whilst also ticking the boxes the system prefers. It is a mistake to think (as you've discovered) that hard work and devotion to duty - often at your own personal expense - is enough. I know that's a cynical approach but, very often that's life, however unfair it seems.

For now complete the implementation of the project but ensure that you "own" it and are are seen to do so. Know your worth (not just financially but in your ambition, drive, strategic thinking). Ensure you are seen as the lead, particularly by senior management/people of influence and protect your research and the various versions of your work - in fact adopt a more male mindset or you will keep being in this situation whether you stay in your current role or go elsewhere.

Look into how you can network with people who can help you progress in the future and, by all means, update your CV with what you have achieved once the project is implemented and see what other suitable jobs are available in your area of expertise outside your current Trust.

If it helps, see yourself as a recruiting consultant (ie a third party) putting together a proposal on an applicant they want a company to recruit at a higher level - would that improve how you present at interviews for the better?

I'm a band 7 interviewer in the NHS. How we appoint is entirely determined by the responses in an interview using a points scoring system. I have seen excellent members of staff perform poorly at interview, and not get the job, despite this.

It's nothing to do with being part-time, male, or anything else. If your colleague scored more points, he will get the job.

I'd be seeking out interview feedback, doing some interview coaching/training etc.

“It's nothing to do with being part-time, male, or anything else”

That may be so when you are selecting, but the evidence on equality in the NHS doesn’t back up that statement. Discrimination happens.

That may be so when you are selecting, but the evidence on equality in the NHS doesn’t back up that statement. Discrimination happens.

Exactly.

It can’t be a coincidence that all the Band 6’s on our ward are the full time, under 25 years old with no dependants, whereas the more experienced nurse, but part timers with children, are always getting knocked back because they didn’t get enough points.

I went for the promotion this time round as did another experienced nurse (also part time with three children) but the rest of the senior Band 5’s staff didn’t because they said, “what’s the point?”

It’s so demotivating.

There’s always talk about the importance of good teamwork and good staff morale etc but promoting young and inexperienced nurses whilst other senior nurses get left behind isn’t the way to achieve this. It just leaves the more experienced staff feeling they are of no value and worth and that’s not the way to keep a work force happy.

@Loopytiles - not where I work - it's purely points/competency/skills/ related.

When shortlisting; I don't know a candidate's name, age, gender, disability status, address etc. It's all anonymised information.

There are people who know how to play the game & interview well though.

.....not where I work - it's purely points/competency/skills/ related.

Unfortunately competency and skills don’t stand for anything in our recruitment process. It’s points only.

And I'm a part-time 7. Our 7's are female & a mix of full/part time, and it's very unlikely you'll get a 7 in your 20's - perhaps 30's. Or more likely 40's onwards.

@QueenofmyPrinces - the more you post, the more it comes across that you don't understand the recruitment process & scoring system used in interviews.