To ask how much you’d offer for this property?

[Swiftier]

First time buyers and we have seen a flat which ticks a lot of boxes but it’s in a bit of a state. It’s liveable and everything works/there’s no obvious structural issues and it’s in a very well maintained block. The building is Grade 2 listed so well kept and attractive. But the owners haven’t updated anything in 40 years...

We love the flat, the location and can see how it would be amazing, but it would need a new kitchen, bathroom, new windows, new flooring and repainting. It would also need a wall being built in (they removed a bedroom to make more living space - we would want to put it back in!)

Other flats in the block with the same number of bedrooms sell for between 700k and 800k - they all have slightly different layouts, some have balconies etc and some are bigger than others hence there’s a range in prices. The most recent one sold in the block went for 800k but it was larger than this flat (by 20 square metres) and it was in perfect condition.

It’s currently on the market for 800k and has been for over a year - it was originally on for 850k but was lowered a few months ago. Basically they are asking for the very top end of the value of the property and haven’t taken into account the work that would need to be done.

As first time buyers we’re not sure how much lower to offer for given the work that’s needed. We could work out a rough idea of what the work would cost and deduct that from the asking price but how much more would you deduct for the inconvenience and time needed to get it up to scratch? We also are aware it might need even more work than we realise so want to give ourselves some flexibility.

So anyone who has been through the same or has any ideas, what would you offer? 😊

I would think about what you can afford given the cost of the work you want to do and take that off. Say, if it's 50K (I'm just making that up), then think about the position you are in relative to other buyers. You, I'm assuming aren't in a chain, so you will be attractive for that reason. If you were cash buyers, you might be even more attractive without all the hassles of dealing with a bank. I might take a bit more off for that. Maybe start at 740? It's really about how much you want to pay for it, what it's worth to you, and how much you are willing to stay firm and walk away if it's not going to be worth it to you.

Thank you, we aren’t in a chain so we do have that going for us. Given the property has been on the market for ages I think either there’s not much interest or the sellers aren’t willing to negotiate on price...

I guess I’m not sure whether we should be offering quite a bit less than that (asking price minus the costs of improvements) given that the improvements will be a big stress and inconvenience?

Oh and we are not cash buyers, we’ll be getting a mortgage.

Are you comparing its price with flats with the same number of current bedrooms, or with the number of bedrooms it should have once the wall is replaced? I'd definitely compare prices of those with fewer bedrooms and discount for the work needed. But equally, be prepared to discover that the sellers aren't willing to sell at the right price and you may need to walk away.

I would never entertain buying anything grade 2 listed (or grade anything listed). Do your research carefully about maintenance costs.

Why don’t you ring the estate agents and ask the situation? They’ll know whether the sellers are only selling for £800k or not

Honestly, with that kind of money - don’t buy a flat ( assuming it’s not freehold)

If it’s grade 2 listed, you likely wouldn’t be allowed “new” windows, unless you’re replacing them like for like

Grade 2 listed? Don't do it. Buy something else.

What @Wavey123 said about the windows.

You need to offer what is worth to you, I don't think you can knock money off for the inconvenience, I'd work out what the flat will sell for once done up, how much you need to spend, then offer.
If they don't accept then walk away leaving the offer on the table.

You may be prepared to pay over the odds for the property if you really love it and take into account it will be done exactly to your taste but take into account when you come to sell you won't get back all the money you spend if you spend too much.

In our area, permission to change windows in a listed building that has been turned into flats won't be given unless all owners change them. I know this because we live next door to such a building.

Grade 2 listed flat? No, dont do it. Your service and maintenance charges will be stupendous for any repairs. You won't be able to do your own windows, really, buy something else.

I agree with the Grade 2 listed warnings! You ought find you cannot replace the wall, you will have strict instructions and restrictions over any fixtures, fittings and work. If there is original lathe and plaster then it will have to be replaced by a specialist, no change in windows unless it is like for like etc. Not only will your choices be restricted but you could find your expected costs to be vastly underestimated. There should be a conservation specialist st the council and I would talk to them before doing anything else. They are usually very happy to give you a much better idea of what can and cannot be done and the costs involved. Do that first and see if it is financially viable, possible to do anything you want etc.

@Pythonesque that’s a good point. I was comparing to other three beds, it is currently configured as a two bed so I will look at the prices of two beds, thank you! Yes we think that it’s quite possible the sellers might not negotiate, given how long it’s been on sale I think it may be that they aren’t accepting lower offers.

@badlydrawnperson thanks. It is something we have looked at. The flats are all share of freehold and pay a monthly fee for maintaining the block - for general work like the shared gardens and spaces and for occasional more significant work. So all costs for the maintenance of the building are shared. Do you think that mitigates the risk a bit?

@wavey123 the ‘new’ windows would be to be in keeping with the original windows of the building. The current windows were put in prior to it being listed and not in keeping.

@Flossyfloof it’s a freehold flat. Where we are looking (an expensive area of London) you can’t buy many houses for this price, and the flats are in better locations than the houses anyway - they face over an open Heath, plus they tend to be much bigger for the same price, the houses are mostly narrow terraces.

@Pokemongirl88 thanks will definitely speak to the estate agent. Just wanted to get an idea from others on pricing first!

@absolutepowercorrupts it’s a building that was originally built as flats. This flat is the only one with windows that aren’t original or aren’t ‘like for like’. They were replaced by the current owner prior to the building being listed.

I would walk away, it doesn't sound like the current owners are very grounded in reality. If they are asking for more than better properties that don't require work then I don't think you can haggle the price down to anything realistic. Unless this is your dream, forever home then it isn't worth paying over the odds for. You won't get more out than you put in.

Ok freehold is good! Is it a management company? Or do the owners share the freehold?
I don’t know much about listed status. I understand that they do what they can to work with owners but refurbishing a listed property is likely to be much more expensive than non-listed and much more restrictive.
As people have said - set a price and be prepared to walk away. Or you could put in a cheeky offer to set the ball rolling and see what comes.
I still wouldn’t though. Flats are fraught with problems ime.

@regularbutpanickingabit thanks that’s a great idea for speaking to the council. I wouldn’t have thought putting an internal wall back in would be a problem? It would be putting it back to how it was originally. Again this work was done by the current owner prior to the building being listed. Any other work we would want to do would be to put the flat back to its original state and in keeping with the era it was built (we love the style which was part of why we were keen).

Just a word of warning about listed buildings and windows... we just replaced the sash windows of out gr2 listed house like for like, old ones rotten and some panes perpex... took 2 years to get planning permission and cost 8k for 3 sash windows. I will NEVER buy a listed building again

I think if you are really interested in the property you should ask if you can get a builders quote. As this is Grade 2 your builder would need to be experienced and more expensive. You say properties sell for between £700-£800k. So your starting point needs to be realistic, probably nearer £675k

@flossyfloof it’s a share of freehold.

@perch that sounds like a nightmare thanks for letting me know!

Buyers would expect the kitchen, bathroom and redecoration on a flat at that price range to be pretty high end, so it's probably going to be expensive to bring it up to modern standards.

Plus you've the complications and expense of listing, so I'd expect to pay around £650-700k based on what you've said.

Basically, they've not a hope in hell of selling for £800k unless they find a buyer with more money than sense.

I agree with everything regularbutpanickingabit said.

We are on our 5th property having gutted 2 of them, and no way on this earth would I touch a grade II listed property. The restrictions are huge.

The reason the owners of that property haven't touched it for decades is precisely because the costs involved are extortionate. You cannot touch the fabric of the building. This is going to be a money pit.

@bellabasset that’s a great idea asking to get a builders quote thank you. We vaguely know someone who owns a company restoring properties so is very experienced and would know about listing considerations etc so will ask him too.