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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask how much you’d offer for this property?

133 replies

Swiftier · 15/05/2019 09:05

First time buyers and we have seen a flat which ticks a lot of boxes but it’s in a bit of a state. It’s liveable and everything works/there’s no obvious structural issues and it’s in a very well maintained block. The building is Grade 2 listed so well kept and attractive. But the owners haven’t updated anything in 40 years...

We love the flat, the location and can see how it would be amazing, but it would need a new kitchen, bathroom, new windows, new flooring and repainting. It would also need a wall being built in (they removed a bedroom to make more living space - we would want to put it back in!)

Other flats in the block with the same number of bedrooms sell for between 700k and 800k - they all have slightly different layouts, some have balconies etc and some are bigger than others hence there’s a range in prices. The most recent one sold in the block went for 800k but it was larger than this flat (by 20 square metres) and it was in perfect condition.

It’s currently on the market for 800k and has been for over a year - it was originally on for 850k but was lowered a few months ago. Basically they are asking for the very top end of the value of the property and haven’t taken into account the work that would need to be done.

As first time buyers we’re not sure how much lower to offer for given the work that’s needed. We could work out a rough idea of what the work would cost and deduct that from the asking price but how much more would you deduct for the inconvenience and time needed to get it up to scratch? We also are aware it might need even more work than we realise so want to give ourselves some flexibility.

So anyone who has been through the same or has any ideas, what would you offer? 😊

OP posts:
candycane222 · 15/05/2019 11:58

Second the warning about replacing the 'wrong' windws with 'in keeping ' ones. Twice come across listed agricultural buildings that were originally built with slate roofs but farmers has replaced the with corrugated iron when they fell to bits. Both times there was planning permission to convert the buildings, but planners insited on replacing the corrugated iron with - corrugated iron Confused

candycane222 · 15/05/2019 12:03

Though given the date of yours and the obvious acvess to the original 'architectural vision' you are poss less likely to face that sort of nonsense there!

gubbsywubbsy · 15/05/2019 12:13

I'd start at £700 k and work up .. you need to give reasons why you are offering this so work out what you want to do and rough prices for this then say it's based on sale prices of nearby flats ..

Swiftier · 15/05/2019 12:13

@Workerbee1 ah amazing! Meaning no offence about the terraces, but we are currently living in a flat in the area with lovely heath views and space and prioritising that at the moment! Realistically will probably want to move to a house at some point though...

OP posts:
Villanellesproudmum · 15/05/2019 12:21

Can you post a link to the property? Might give us more of an idea.

Peanutbutterforever · 15/05/2019 12:23

Haven't had time to read every post.

Bear in mind that if a building is listed, everything in it and the garden's cartilage is protected, as it was at the moment it was listed. You will need conservation dept approval for ANYTHING you do that will change the appearance (bar paint etc.). Even fitted furniture technically has to get approval.

You may well get permission for "unimportant' areas, but you still have to get it. I had to get permission to replace modern flooring, with a different modern flooring, in a modern bit of a house. I had to get permission to replace a chipboard floor.

The law for listed buildings is not really fit for purpose. You will be dependant on the individual opinion of your conservation officer and they vary mammothly.

Be careful.

Peanutbutterforever · 15/05/2019 12:26

Remember too that doing work without permission is a criminal rather than civil offence and that the problem goes with the house owner rather than the person who made the changes.

I'm not suggesting you'd be prosecuted for changes someone had made before you, but post listing, but you could be made to put thinks back to how they were when listed.

There is a listed property owners' club. They may have good advice.

wonkylegs · 15/05/2019 12:31

See if you can have a chat with the heritage officer for the local authority. Sometimes they can be very helpful with advice rather than the planning officer who usually require you to pay.
What is covered by the listing will depend on the exact wording of the listing. How much of a bother it is to make changes can vary wildly from property to property.
You will more than likely require permission which may be as simple as filling out some paperwork or more complex depending on the listing requirements, the attitude of the heritage / planning officer and what you want to do. It's important you get it right through as unlike general planning offences which are covered by civil law, listed buildings are covered by criminal law so a bit more serious if you get it wrong.
I haven't done much listed work in London except in Hampstead Garden Suburb which was a complete nightmare, due to the listing and conservation status and the fact that Barnet were really unhelpful.

ballisticcyclistic · 15/05/2019 12:36

Hi OP. It’s s buyer’s market in London at the moment, House prices have dipped by about 15% in many areas. As first time buyers with no chain, you could put in an offer of £650-£700, The worst that can happen is they turn it down and then you can go up.
I think house prices will recover once the Brexit nonsense is sorted and as market confidence returns. At the moment, nobody is moving because of stamp duty and uncertainty.
I also live in a Grade 2 listed house in London. You can make internal changes where you are adding to a property (ie putting a wall in), but it’s harder if you want to take a wall out. I think if the windows in this place aren’t original anyway, you’ll be fine.

AlexaAmbidextra · 15/05/2019 12:46

OP. It’s a lovely flat with the most amazing views in a beautiful part of London. I can see why you’re so smitten with it. Just make sure they take their dodgy curtains with them. 😂

Swiftier · 15/05/2019 13:05

Ha didn’t want to add the listing as want to keep myself anonymous on here! Should probably have name changed before this...

@AlexaAmbidextra it could be lovely, you can see it would need a lot of work though!

OP posts:
Swiftier · 15/05/2019 13:06

@ballisticcyclistic that’s what we thought too, at the moment property prices are going down where we are looking so probably a good time to buy!

OP posts:
Swiftier · 15/05/2019 13:07

Good caution about the criminal offence issue too thank you.

OP posts:
regularbutpanickingabit · 15/05/2019 13:16

@Bluntness100 Blimey, who woke you up early this morning? No-one made up some shite about interiors. When I replied, the op hadn't said that the listing was only for the exterior. In the 3 places I have been involved with, there were many issues with changing all sorts of interior fixtures and fittings. For one that definitely included not being able to install a new kitchen (although you could change seemed some of doors, which seemed odd) and not being able to use normal paints on certain walls. It is completely dependent on the nature, detail and reason behind a listing, the property itself and on the area. That's why I suggested she speak to the council specialists.

Bluntness100 · 15/05/2019 13:20

Bear in mind that if a building is listed, everything in it and the garden's cartilage is protected, as it was at the moment it was listed. You will need conservation dept approval for ANYTHING you do that will change the appearance (bar paint etc.). Even fitted furniture technically has to get approval

This isn't actually true. You need to look at the listing to see what's covered. Many of them are really high level. You also need to look at what date it was listed. It's highly unlikely they have pics of the interiors etc from that date. Listings can be decades old. Ours is.

So for example some can list all the details inc fireplaces or ceiling roses, or other listings just describe the house itself and nothing further is listed.

It would be lunacy, and I know those lunatics do exist, to buy a listed building if you just wish to rip out the original features. Then it's not the house for you.

But if you are happy to keep the original features, then owning a listed building is no big deal at all. You can change the kitchen or th bathroom or anything else without permission, unless it was in place at the time of listing and is noted in the listing. That would be highly unusual but is easily checked with a quick google.

No you can't build a modern building in its grounds, it needs to be in keeping and yes replacing windows you need to be like with like.

But some people are posting here who have clearly never lived in a listed building and are posting stuff that is simply not accurate.

If I was to put it simply. These houses are made for living in. Planners want you to do that and want you to make them fit for purpose. They are not meant as uninhabitable museum pieces.

Your job as the owner is to maintain the fabric and appearance of the building for historical purposes. So not knocking down walls without permission, removing original fixtures and fittings, replacing wooden windows with upvc crap or whatever. As this would fundamentally change the building.

But things like wallpapering, getting a new kitchen, putting anew carpet down, putting a new bathroom in, painting internally , does not need approval. Because you're not changing the fabric of the building.

So yes if you wish to put a wall up, or you wish to replace the windows, you will need permission, and as long as you asked what they recommend and what you're options are, then it should be a simple process. But they don't want to hear from you because you want a new carpet or bathroom, or need to replace their kitchen. That stuff they are not interested in. Because even if it lasts for decades, it's all still temporary and doesn't change the fabric of the building. You're still preserving it for historical purposes.

motheroffourcats · 15/05/2019 13:53

YOU'LL NEED THE LANDLORD/FREEHOLDER'S PERMISSION TO REPLACE WINDOWS/DOORS ETC AND TO REINSTATE A FORMER WALL. sorry for the capitals. Also, if it is Grade II listed you may be prevented from replacing windows/doors/rebuild wall etc. It could be costly as you would need planning permissions/building regualtiosn consetns and apporovals as well as the freeholder's permission. IMe every letter of consetn attracts legal fees.

Not trying to discourage you though. It is all acheievable. Good luck with your venture.

motheroffourcats · 15/05/2019 13:54

Bluntness speaks great sense and probably has been there before.

Alsohuman · 15/05/2019 14:15

Bluntness is absolutely right.

PinkOboe · 15/05/2019 14:46

Actually bluntness is incorrect. A listing, any listing, covers the building in its entirety. Inside, outside and curtilage. Always. You must not rely on the list description to make assumptions on what is and isn’t scheduled.

SunnyCoco · 15/05/2019 14:46

Share of freehold is not the same as freehold

PlugUgly1980 · 15/05/2019 14:52

Have you checked with your Financial Adviser or mortgage provider...many providers won't lend on freehold (or shared freehold) flats. Too many issues with trying to ascertain ownership for who's responsible for what that could impact the providers security.

Bluntness100 · 15/05/2019 15:20

Actually bluntness is incorrect. A listing, any listing, covers the building in its entirety. Inside, outside and curtilage. Always. You must not rely on the list description to make assumptions on what is and isn’t scheduled

Actually I am correct. Because a listing is based on what was in place at the time of listing, and what is in the listing. Your statement is correct but you've stopped short of saying it covers its contents, like a kitchen etc.

So if it says the kitchen is also listed then it can't be changed without permission, if it doesnt then it can be changed, it doesn't need permission. The listing and what it details is absolutely critical.

The listing is to preserve the original fixtures and fittings as of the time of the listing. If things like the kitchen or carpet are not called out in thr listing, and not deemed original, then they can be changed without permission. They are effectively like temporary contents. You do not change the fabric of the building by changing them.

Thr grounds can also be changed. You can plant trees, even build a small patio below a certain size,, without permission,what you can't do is build a modern building in the grounds, or a patio over a certain size.

If you think of why a building is listed you'll understand it. And I'm talking grade 11, you may be talking grade 1, but if you think of why it's listed it's because it's of historical interest. So they wish to preserve the building and the original features for historical interest

No one gives a shiny shit about a twenty year old kitchen in a two hundred year old building. Or if you put carpet down over the original floorboards. Nor do they give a crap what colour you paint the walls internally. No planner wishes to be bothered with that shit.listings are not intended to make people's lives difficult to the extent you're trying to make out.

What they care about is the external appearance, so you can't change the windows, build conservatories, change the colour of your front door. Without permission. And you can't knock down walls or remove original features like cornicing or fire places inside. You need to preserve it. But preserving it doesn't mean you need to ask permission to paint or renew your kitchen or bathroom, unless it's original and on the listing, and that would be very, very rare indeed.

Ours has a porch built on it, a garage in the grounds. Both required permission. Both got permission. So getting permission doesn't mean you can't do it. It means they want to see what you want to do to ensure it's in keeping with the building.

And you'd have to be a total lunatic as said, if you wished to buy a listed building, start adding things out of keeping, ripping out ancient fire places or adding upvc windows. But people do that's why you need permission.

But changing a twenty or thirty year old kitchen on a four hundred year old house? They don't care. I know as I live in a listed building, I have replaced my kitchen and I have asked the question. I will also replace my bathroom next year. The bathroom that's about twenty years old. And was put on decades after the listing in a four hundred year old house. No planner wants to see my design if I'm not ripping out walls etc. Why. Because my crappy bathroom. Like my crappy kitchen did not need to be preserved for historical interest.

And the house needs to be habitable. Not a museum piece filled with shitty seventies Kitchens and bathrooms.

BackOnceAgainWithABurnerEmail · 15/05/2019 15:28

Things like these eat money. All the permissions, indemnities, guarantees. It’s like walking around spunking our cash left right and centre.

That said, it sounds gorgeous!

Just make sure you are still financially very comfortable and make sure you love it as it will be a labour of love.

Alsohuman · 15/05/2019 15:58

The listing on ours only covers the exterior so our new kitchen and bathroom are fine.

tenbob · 15/05/2019 16:22

Ah ok, I've found it.
I initially thought you were talking about somewhere in Hampstead, but having seen where it is, £800k is an absolute pisstake asking price!

I've done a very quick search and it seems 40% overpriced per sq foot compared to others nearby