To ask how much you’d offer for this property?

[Swiftier]

First time buyers and we have seen a flat which ticks a lot of boxes but it’s in a bit of a state. It’s liveable and everything works/there’s no obvious structural issues and it’s in a very well maintained block. The building is Grade 2 listed so well kept and attractive. But the owners haven’t updated anything in 40 years...

We love the flat, the location and can see how it would be amazing, but it would need a new kitchen, bathroom, new windows, new flooring and repainting. It would also need a wall being built in (they removed a bedroom to make more living space - we would want to put it back in!)

Other flats in the block with the same number of bedrooms sell for between 700k and 800k - they all have slightly different layouts, some have balconies etc and some are bigger than others hence there’s a range in prices. The most recent one sold in the block went for 800k but it was larger than this flat (by 20 square metres) and it was in perfect condition.

It’s currently on the market for 800k and has been for over a year - it was originally on for 850k but was lowered a few months ago. Basically they are asking for the very top end of the value of the property and haven’t taken into account the work that would need to be done.

As first time buyers we’re not sure how much lower to offer for given the work that’s needed. We could work out a rough idea of what the work would cost and deduct that from the asking price but how much more would you deduct for the inconvenience and time needed to get it up to scratch? We also are aware it might need even more work than we realise so want to give ourselves some flexibility.

So anyone who has been through the same or has any ideas, what would you offer? 😊

You can't ask a vendor to reduce the price to cover the cost of cosmetic

things you'd like to it.

e.g. if the kitchen or bathroom have items that don't work, cupboards falling apart etc. then give it a try, but you can't expect someone to drop the price because the the fully functional and fully working kitchen and bathroom aren't to your personal taste.

Do thoroughly investigate what you can and can't do to a grade 2 listed building, it can be very restrictive.

Slow typing, that is what I mean about listed buildings, you are completely restricted in what you can do, it can take ages for them to approve things and the cost is incredible.

The fact that you are saying you didn't realise you could talk to the council shows you need to read up on listed buildings, not only the restrictions but also what things cost.

@Geoffreyeatspancakes thanks that’s very useful. We wouldn’t want to change anything to the exterior other than the windows which would be to return them to closer to the original style. Does the listing impact on what you can do internally? Again we would want to return to the original style. Having seen other flats in the same block all the others have new kitchens and bathrooms, etc so I can’t see why doing that sort of work internally would be an issue?

Yes, Grade 2 is an alarm bell. I live in a conservation village so have first hand experience. It’s a nightmare, especially the windows. Check with council on planning permissions that have been obtained for works done before you offer. Also flats are getting cheaper because of the buy to let tax laws that are being enforced. I would start very low and offer up once you have all info from Council.

Can you check with the council (or whoever) what the listing covers and whether you would need permission for the work you plan to do.

From experience (flat was not listed but was nearly 200 years old), you will be looking at spending the best part of £60k, that’s with mid range fittings, appliances and flooring. If you get carried away with the kitchen that figure could easily go north ... have included some but not much allowance for Windows btw.

The issue is nothing will be straight or uniform, electrics may need upgrading, pipework certainly may need replacing etc. New boiler too, how about radiators etc? And then, above all, you need to consider the grade 2 status.

And then there’s the buggeration factor.

Yep, I’d be offering at least 75k under asking. Which , by the sounds of things, would get laughed out the door but if you don’t ask ...

Be careful with regard to the windows. If the property was listed with the current ones even if not original or don't match the others then they may still have to have permission to change. Also this may ne a freeholders issue so you may have to get agreement from other freeholders and their agreement to chip in!!!

And yes I will be doing a lot more research on the listing issue. This has already been very useful though so thanks everyone!

@MonkeysandParrots thank you that’s really helpful. Sounds like a bit project for your flat! This flat isn’t that old actually, it was built 50 years ago. So it’s not wonky or anything at least 😂

It’s hard when you set your heart on a place but honestly I would walk away now. You’re in a great position and there’ll be other houses. I really wouldn’t buy a flat anyway - terraced houses are often like tardises so I wouldn’t dismiss them.

it’s a freehold flat

Are you sure? You wrote earlier that it's a share of freehold (which sounds more plausible). Share of freehold and freehold are not the same thing. Share of freehold means that the flat is still leasehold but the owner also owns a share of the freehold.

Personally I would avoid spending that kind of money on a flat, especially a Grade 2 listed one. Communal works incl. maintenance can end up being very expensive and even with a share of the freehold, yo may have very limited say in what is done. (I write this as someone owning a share of the freehold for my building). If you really prefer a flat in that area, I'd look for something that isn't listed.

As well as the consent of the freeholder you''ll need listed building consent for any alterations (i.e windows / putting wall back in but not changing the kitchen / bathroom unless you're making changes to the fabric of the building). this is often a lengthy (and therefore expensive) process.

Can you do a quick calculation based on price per sqm rather than number of bedrooms bearing in mind that the flats differ in size?

The key person you need to speak to is the Managing Agent. I would be wary of advice from the Estate Agent and about letting them know too much about your plans. Their main function is to get the best price for the seller and the quickest sale for themselves. I haven't found ours particularly trustworthy in the past.
It does depend if the flat is freehold or leasehold and how long the lease is. Who manages the building is a key question - is it the building's own residents who either manage it themselves or have appointed a managing agent? or a straightforward managing agent who is in charge of running things.
I ask because as it is a grade 2 listed building and even if it wasn't in a residential block you would have to apply for permission from either the leaseholder or the managing agent to carry out works or any particular renovations ( knocking walls down for eg). They may appoint a surveyor to inspect the works, look at effects on party walls, and there may be requests about how long your builders are allowed to work, how they can get materials up to your flat and so on. Keeping the noise down.
So a quick word with the MA about what might be involved is a good idea. It might be that the MA is willing to give you a copy of the lease or similar so that you can see what your rights and obligations are in terms of building works in the flat.
As previous pps have said its a good idea to plan what works you might need, and try to get a ball park figure of how much that would cost and then if it would increase the value of your property or not.
Shelter has a very very good summary of the rights and obligations of lessees and landlords (person you pay the annual ground rent to) If the Managing Agent doesn't seem to know much ( some are good and some just have too many properties to look after) you can always try looking at the ARMA (association of residential managing agents) for more info on thsi or for an expert to speak to - a surveyor who works on residential blocks would probably be reasonably impartial and have good advice.
Dont let this put you off if you've found a gem, but bear in mind that blocks have more regulations than a house for example.

I agree the windows could be a real problem, my parents (late 80s) fell in love with a Grade 2 property and bought it knowing the windows needed replacing. Dealing with the Planning Permission was a nightmare, no one could advise what sort of windows they needed, only what they couldn’t have , the PlanningOfficers kept changing and telling my DPs different information, all incredibly UNhelpful. Eventually it was sorted, but cost a vast amount of money.

How much is the service charge per year? I would imagine being g2 will add a significant amount.

I know the sort of flat you're looking at (former London estate agent mostly SW1 & 3) - they cost a bomb to renovate. I'd say that actually, you wouldn't get much change out of 80k for renovations. I'd offer 715k and would walk away after 745k

Wow thanks for all those responses. I’ve got a lot to go on now for further research particularly around the windows and listing, but will speak to the council and find out more about the listing restrictions, previous work done, look at getting a building quote and so on as advised. Much appreciated, everyone.

My current thinking is subject to further investigations we could put in a very low offer, given the work needed and how difficult this could be, and if they don’t accept it we could walk away. We aren’t in a rush to move so can wait until the right thing comes up!

Will probably still look for a flat though, around here all the properties in our budget with the best space and views are flats, and the houses are mostly much smaller terraces in narrow streets.

@Enb76 ah thanks that’s very helpful. It’s the views that make the flats around here (the flats have views over the heath or to the city, the terraces are mostly small Victorian two-up-two-down on narrow streets and just don’t have the feeling of space that the flats have!). I imagine spending this much on a flat rather than a house seems completely nuts to a lot of people especially if you’re not from London! I know we could get a house in another area but we love the area and living somewhere central.

If, as you say, the internal wall was removed and the windows changed and were therefore already in place when flat was listed, you may well find that these prior changes are how it has to stay, regardless of whether they’re in keeping or not. This is one of the mad anomalies of the listed building issue.

I think there are two calculations, one much easier to pin a precise figure on than the other. The first is how much it'll realistically cost to do the work (imagine your top budget and add 20%); the second is the very vague 'how much do people want to live here?' tax on top of the true value. Sounds like the owners are probably estimating the latter at about £100k - and if it's somewhere near a heath in London, they're gambling on someone wanting it enough to pay it... eventually.

So, if you really want it, brace yourself for paying an amount that doesn't seem entirely logical. And then paying another amount that doesn't seem logical when you have to get specialist trades to do the Listed renovation work. voice of grim experience

@Swiftier
I agree that as the building was originally built as flats then it's very different from a converted building. But even if the windows are not original they are still part of the building when listed.
I live in a National Park in a Grade 2 listed building, in fact many of the buildings in this town are listed. As pp have said listed buildings can be a nightmare and something that seems to be common sense to you is not acceptable to a Conservation/Heritage Officer. Talk to the officials at your council and find out what you have to do to obtain permission. You've been given some great advice here. Good luck

@AlexaAmbidextra thanks that’s a good point. However the Listing doesn’t mention any internal features of the flats and the Listing entry states that the interior of the building wasn’t inspected as part of the process, noting that it was expected to be ‘unremarkable’. So hopefully adding a wall back in wouldn’t be a problem from the Listing point of view. Definitely something to consider though. I’m aware that other windows have been replaced since the listing, but in a like-for-like way.

Your mortgage will depend on lenders survey. They won't lend more than it's worth, and may hold money back till essential works done. So you need savings on top of your deposit, or credit card capacity.
I did this, had to rewire, safety issue, then was able to borrow more money after a year to put in heating and other improvements.
Or you can ask vendor to do work and not drop price, but better to do yourself if funds allow. Mine had to fix unsecured window, but it was botch job. All worth it in the end, loved that place, and good price when sold

@hippermiddleton thank you very useful to hear from someone who has been through it! Definitely, we would need to give ourselves a good margin for extra costs here.

@Absolutepowercorrupts thanks that’s great, the responses have definitely made me realise that Listing restrictions may not always be sensible or as expected!