To ask how much you’d offer for this property?

[Swiftier]

First time buyers and we have seen a flat which ticks a lot of boxes but it’s in a bit of a state. It’s liveable and everything works/there’s no obvious structural issues and it’s in a very well maintained block. The building is Grade 2 listed so well kept and attractive. But the owners haven’t updated anything in 40 years...

We love the flat, the location and can see how it would be amazing, but it would need a new kitchen, bathroom, new windows, new flooring and repainting. It would also need a wall being built in (they removed a bedroom to make more living space - we would want to put it back in!)

Other flats in the block with the same number of bedrooms sell for between 700k and 800k - they all have slightly different layouts, some have balconies etc and some are bigger than others hence there’s a range in prices. The most recent one sold in the block went for 800k but it was larger than this flat (by 20 square metres) and it was in perfect condition.

It’s currently on the market for 800k and has been for over a year - it was originally on for 850k but was lowered a few months ago. Basically they are asking for the very top end of the value of the property and haven’t taken into account the work that would need to be done.

As first time buyers we’re not sure how much lower to offer for given the work that’s needed. We could work out a rough idea of what the work would cost and deduct that from the asking price but how much more would you deduct for the inconvenience and time needed to get it up to scratch? We also are aware it might need even more work than we realise so want to give ourselves some flexibility.

So anyone who has been through the same or has any ideas, what would you offer? 😊

I always like to look at the price of flats when I go down south then very happily go back to my 5 bedroom house with 10 acres that cost half London flat prices.

On a serious note: get quotes for the work. Find out the listed building restrictions. Check out planning if you even want to change windows as you may not be allowed.

Personally I wouldn’t touch it. Overpriced and with restrictions it’s going to be a pain in the arse to fix up.

Oh is it Knight Frank Span flat with lots and lots of curtains on each window frame? It’s got potential if so. Crazy prize.

@tenbob how did you come to 40%? I haven’t done a proper analysis but will look at sold prices of two beds and square footage to work out what would be reasonable as everyone has suggested.
However thought their asking price would be in the ball park IF it was in good condition. The last three bed to sell in that block went for 800 and although it was bigger inside, had no outside space. So yes, maybe this is worth less than 800 if in good condition, but not loads less? Like not 40% less. I’m pretty sure you can’t something of that size for 480k in the area...

I’m working on the assumption that the sellers do not want to negotiate on the price though (and we wouldn’t pay the asking price!)

@tenbob In 2018 three flats in that block with two beds sold, one for 720 and two for 750 so I reckon between 700-800 would be reasonable IF in good condition? (which it’s not 😂)

Bluntness you are WRONG. You need permission for the changes that need permission, ANYWHERE in a listed building, even if they are not included on the listing document.

OP if you go ahead PLEASE speak to the conservation officer at the appropriate council. Taking inaccurate advice from strangers on the web could land you in serious problems if you get it wrong re listed buildings.

I have done a major project on a grade 2 house and I'm not talking through my hat.

Just had a look at the adverts on Rightmove, you can only consider it a two bed value due to above mentioned concerns about reinstating Bed3.

Also given the construction you must get a proper quote for the cost of replacing those windows with approved windows!

There is so much glass that the cost could be (will be) enormous. You’re obviously mad about the place ... but do your sums objectively.

Remember, you might be prepared to over pay for it but your mortgage provider won’t lend if their surveyor doesn’t ageee with the market value.

Besides you know the cliche: if you’re not embarrassed by the offer then it’s probably too high.

@Villanellesproudmum it does have lots of curtains yes 😂 It’s not on with KF though as far as I’m aware! But sure you’ve found it. I can see the potential with time and money invested in it.

@Peanutbutterforever thanks I’ll definitely be speaking to the council. And @Bootikin thanks - not so mad we would pay more than we should for it though. Like it and can see the potential but also realistic. There are definitely other nice properties available within our budget which would be less of a headache!

havent RTFT

Another grade 2 listed home owner here! As others have said, the newer windows are what are listed, so you will have to get planning permission to get them changed, although if you're putting them back to a more original style you're more likely to get it approved.

Our house hadn't been updated in about 40 years. We had to rewire the whole place, so do check out your electrics too (fortunately my partner was an electrician so we've saved ourselves a lot of money there, a lot won't touch an older property). Also had to get an entire new heating system. But we knew all this before we moved in and paid accordingly!

Before we bought the house my partner phoned up the planning and listings departments in the council to talk through what we can/cannot do. For us (may be different elsewhere), so long as we dont change the room function (ie kitchen to a lounge) we can do what we want inside, however we cant touch the beams. Any exterior changes we need planning for, unless replaced like to like. Best bet though is to phone up and talk to someone for advice.

Justamemory, yes exactly.

Some of these responses are bonkers. 🤣

Oh yes it’s on with two agents, I’d turn it into a 60s style New York look apartment it could be stunning!

Actually not all listed buildings include the inside.

Ooooh I have just had a look. It looks lovely and spacious and a great location. Tbh as it is the penthouse and has outside space I imagine that they think it is worth at least £800k and they are happy to wait for someone who agrees with them. I doubt they will let it go for less than £775k...

It’s not even Knight Frank I’ve been dealing with them today for a completely different matter in a northern seaside town today. I really need to concentrate on one thing at a time

I would say that kitchen was updated less than 40 years ago!

I’m not au fait with the London property market but wonder if you are expecting too much of a reduction for it not being in a turnkey condition?

Much as it does have the appearance of 90s static caravan, most of that will go with the vendors and the kitchen and bathroom look serviceable enough even if not to your taste.

@Villanellesproudmum

What parts of the building does listing cover?
Listing covers a whole building, including the interior, unless parts of it are specifically excluded in the list description.

It can also cover:

Other attached structures and fixtures
Later extensions or additions
Pre-1948 buildings on land attached to the building. (In the planning system, the term ‘curtilage’ is used to describe this attached land.)

historicengland.org.uk/advice/your-home/owning-historic-property/listed-building/

By that it means the fabric of the building. Not fixtures and fittings such as kitchens and bathrooms, but things like bannisters, doors, mantle pieces, floorboards, skirting boards etc

Sorry OP not really relevant to your discussion but as a heritage professional of some 20 years it’s a common misconception that I can’t help but try to correct

The listing refers to the condition of the building when it was listed, not when it was built. So if the sellers made those changes prior to the listing, it doesn’t matter if the windows are in keeping or not you still need listed building consent. You also need permission for putting the wall up. Doesn’t matter if the wall would have existed when built it doesn’t now. You may have to get permission from the managing agents for any works to the inside (like type of flooring). I own a flat in a listed building and there’s just an extra layer of bureaucracy you have to deal with.
I’d also offer £700k. It’s obviously over priced.

I currently have 3 applications in, different parts of England, only one of those includes includes any part of the interior, and that just relates to the coving. There are no original parts to the interiors and therefore all the internal parts, structures, pilasters etc are excluded. Not all listed buildings include the whole of the building, I reckon I’ve completed over 40 applications now. I’ve got one coming up in Wales soon, only one external gable wall is listed. I’ve compiled applications from 16 century buildings through to a 70s office block in Sunderland.

@Villanellesproudmum 60s NY style would be amazing!

@Member 90s static caravan is about right! The London property market isn’t doing great, prices have dropped in a lot of areas. Not much on the market in this area and a lot just not selling. And 800k is the same prices as a three bed, bigger flat sold for earlier this year. That flat also had a garage. So I think 800k was a bit ambitious for this flat regardless of condition. But yes you’re totally right it’s perfectly liveable in the current condition.

We stupidly bought a grade 2 flat without asking how much service charge is and found out once we bought it's £400pm
Never again

Blimey £800k for a 2 bed ex local flat in Blackheath

Oh crap you didn’t want a link posted. Will report myself.

Bluntness is correct re listed buildings.

We live in a grade 2 listed house and didn't need consent to change the kitchen or bathrooms. We would need consent if we wanted to move walls or change the exterior or windows or the roof. I checked before we did the work and had it confirmed by the conservation officer. So I wouldn't necessarily panic about the listing.

If you want to insure against being prosecuted for any work done without permission (by the vendors or previous owners) you could ask them to pay for an indemnity policy that covers you for that. I didn't do that before we bought our house but I would do it if buying a listed building again and I'll certainly offer it when we come to sell if a buyer is concerned.

Conservation officers can be a bit of a law unto themselves so be aware of that.