To ask how much you’d offer for this property?

[Swiftier]

First time buyers and we have seen a flat which ticks a lot of boxes but it’s in a bit of a state. It’s liveable and everything works/there’s no obvious structural issues and it’s in a very well maintained block. The building is Grade 2 listed so well kept and attractive. But the owners haven’t updated anything in 40 years...

We love the flat, the location and can see how it would be amazing, but it would need a new kitchen, bathroom, new windows, new flooring and repainting. It would also need a wall being built in (they removed a bedroom to make more living space - we would want to put it back in!)

Other flats in the block with the same number of bedrooms sell for between 700k and 800k - they all have slightly different layouts, some have balconies etc and some are bigger than others hence there’s a range in prices. The most recent one sold in the block went for 800k but it was larger than this flat (by 20 square metres) and it was in perfect condition.

It’s currently on the market for 800k and has been for over a year - it was originally on for 850k but was lowered a few months ago. Basically they are asking for the very top end of the value of the property and haven’t taken into account the work that would need to be done.

As first time buyers we’re not sure how much lower to offer for given the work that’s needed. We could work out a rough idea of what the work would cost and deduct that from the asking price but how much more would you deduct for the inconvenience and time needed to get it up to scratch? We also are aware it might need even more work than we realise so want to give ourselves some flexibility.

So anyone who has been through the same or has any ideas, what would you offer? 😊

Our house is Grade ll listed and is 400 years old. It’s not as much of a nightmare as you’re being led to believe. However, if the windows were replaced before it was listed, you won’t be able to change them because the new windows form part of the listing. It’s immaterial if they’re in keeping or not.

A new kitchen and bathroom won’t cost any more than in any other property. My advice would be to forget the windows, cost up what the necessary work will cost, ie reinstating the wall isn’t necessary, and base your offer on that. Time and inconvenience is also irrelevant.

Grade two listed? I live in one. Just had permission for an en suite turned down (5 bed house). We have a tiny kitchen which cannot be extended (turned down again).

Everything costs double and more and most builders don't want to know. Replacement of a wall and windows will need listed buildings consent which is tricky, expensive and time consuming.

You would have to really have some wedge and a ton of patience to take it on, no matter what the price.

Most of all, you will really need to love it.

Also how is freehold held? Heard some horror stories about management companies, fees etc. We were only 2flats and managed it ourselves but could be nightmare if large company or freeholder dispute.

I think a good talk with the managing agent for the block would be a worthwhile investment of your time. If there isn't a managing agent I woud be wary. Some are pretty awful and take money for doing little but some are very good and can tell you a lot about the maintenace of the property and are au fait with listed buildings.
The other people are the Council and maybe a chat with your contact who works on conservation projects before asking them to look at the property if the owners agree..
As far as I understand, any works including internal ones have to have permission ( from English Heritage?) . It may be worth a word with them too.

@Missingstreetlife thank you. If we can get it for the right price we would have a least a chunk of savings left. Plus the mortgage would be lower so would have money spare on a monthly basis to spend on work.

Swiftier even if there are no internal features in the general listing you will still need listed building consent to change the structure of the flat and this will include replacing a wall. As everyone else has said the windows will be costly and time consuming and you may be denied permission to change them at all.

When the previous owners of our G2 listed house wanted to replace the windows they were allowed (eventually) to replace the rear and side windows with bespoke wooden double glazed units but were flatly refused permission to change the windows on the front. All they were allowed to do on these was secondary glazing (which also required consent and was expensive and bespoke).

The best person to talk to is the Conservation Officer in in your LA's Planning Dept. S/he may way know the building and be able to offer advice on what would and would not be allowed.

It’s not that you won’t get permission. It’s that it’ll likely be a long, expensive process getting it. The listing covers the entirety of the building, inside and out. What’s mentioned in the listing description is just a brief précis. It doesn’t mean if it’s not noted it’s not listed.

I kind of need to say about this This is one of the mad anomalies of the listed building issue.. No the system isn’t perfect, however heritage and conservation are an art, not a science. Our view of what is worthy of preservation or not is a ubjected to the whims of taste, fashion and aesthetics. Just because at the moment in time we think an addition is a hideous abomination we might not in the future (see mid-century, denigrated for years, wildly fashionable now. Crittal windows were abhorred a couple of decades ago, now they’re instagram adored).

More recent additions, be them from currently unfashionable times and styles tell the story of the building, it’s occupants and the society it reflects. And that’s conservation is about, it’s not about making things attractive and nice to look at. It’s about retaining interesting things.

That said a grade II listing is not particularly onerous and if you have a budget, some knowledge and patience you’ll likely be able to achieve more or less what you want

A few things to consider:

Is it probate? If so, what stage is it at and what's the backstory. If there are 5 family members squabbling about the price, walk away now
What is the service charge, and what is the VAT situation? There has just been a change to the law around VAT on service charges, so most will go up by 20% next year. So if they tell you what it currently is, ask what it will be next year

The general rule of thumb for refurbishing is £2k per square metre, but that will obviously depend a lot of the standard of finish you want, and how long it all takes. Putting the wall back will be a really minor job, probably a few hundred quid, assuming it's just a standard stud wall.
The expensive bit will be the plumbing and electrics, and re-plastering old walls before they can be redecorated.

Instead of calculating the cost per bedroom, look at similar flats (including in neighbouring blocks) and calculate the price per sq ft for poor, average and great condition
That will give you a better idea of what this is worth

It’s not as much of a nightmare as you’re being led to believe

Based on one house, in one location.

...compared to LOADS of people in various locations 🙄

Swiftier. They definitely NOT logical. Don’t assume anything. My friends couldn’t even replace their absolutely lethal stairs (more of a ladder!) which were behind a door and only down to the cellar* - they weren’t even original.

I wouldn’t touch a shared freeholder agreement or a G2 listed propert, the combination has me coming out in hives!

However, buying a place in London isn’t easy, so if you really love it, then do all the research suggested so far and Siena some time on G2 forums.

If you make an offer, make it very low because it’s bloody expensive & incredibly time consuming. I wouldn’t pay more that the going rate for the two bedrooms with a similar square footage, less a builders quote (not rough estimate) + 50%. So if quoted £80,000 for the reno, offer no more than £120,000 below what similar flats have SOLD for (not asking price).

Based on my personal experience. What else can I use?

Thank you! @PinkOboe that makes a lot of sense, I get how all changes tell part of the story of the building. It’s a 1960s building by the way so totally understand what you’re saying about fashions too!

@IncrediblySadToo thank you that’s very helpful especially your suggested way of calculating an offer.

swiftier am I right in guessing this is Art Deco-ish, though? Or is it Edwardian?

@tenbob thank you very useful tips! I’ll look at properties in the area and sold prices for two beds of similar size.

Really appreciate everyone’s help as you’ve given me some very specific things to go away and do/think about!

Sorry, that's a rubbish cross post! I love mid-century flats. At least you won't have lime plastering issues...

@hippermiddleton it’s actually 1960s! Part of the appeal is that it’s of the mid-century style, maximising light, floor to ceiling windows (with views). It’s quadruple aspect.

I love listed buildings and have submitted planning applications all over the UK, including England, Wales and Scotland.

What you’re describing sounds very easy, especially if others have changed their windows since like for like, you can find their applications on line and use them as a guide. I’d also use the same window company if possible as they’ll know what can and won’t be allowed and likely do most of the work for you, an application to change windows is very easy, can be completed online and is free.

The issue sounds as though it’ll lay with the price and the vendors unrealistic expectations.

@Villanellesproudmum thank you - interesting to hear of a different view and experience! I’ll look online for previous applications.

Based on my personal experience. What else can I use?

There’s nothing at all wrong with using your personal experience, it’s telling the OP that everyone else’s experience doesn’t count and she’s being led to believe it’s more difficult than it is.

All right, it needn’t be as much of a nightmare as you’re being led to believe. Happy now?

I think I know where you mean.... a "span" flat?

Personally, I would insist on:
Obtaining the freeholders' consent for the works you want to do (or at least a comfort letter) - I think it will be a freehold owning company and so you will need agreement from directors. They should be able to give you previous minutes of meetings and an idea of permission sought/ obtained by other flats.
Speak to the LA (LBL?) and see what hoops you need to jump through there - it may be straightforward if they are only concerned with the exterior.
Windows - if it is where I think it is £££ - I assume they are 60's originals and will have to be custom made, plus everyone replace at the same time.
Find out the service charge and whether there is a reserve fund for major works, whether any works are planned in the next few years and how much they expect to pay. You will not be in control of this even if you own a share of the freehold company.
Again, if it is where I think it is, quite a few of the residents are elderly - there may be more coming on the market .....

@Workerbee1 - interesting! It’s a Span. Do you live around there/work in property or something? Thank you for those tips.

Happy now?

Absolutely over the moon!

🙄

@swiftier - I looked at a similar flat years ago (looking over the pond, which floods by the way) but I decided to go for one of the narrow terraces 😂
Bad experience in the past with service charges put me off a flat even though you are right about the space and views.

I'm a bit bemused by the comments on grade 11 listed buildings, I've lived in one for five years and it's totally fine. Fixtures and fittings you can do as you please with unless it's an original feature, I'm gobsmacked someone made up some shite and post you couldn't.

What you can't do is remove original fixtures and fittings. But things like changing the decor, or fitting a new kitchen etc is all fine. You simply can't change the actual fabric of the building.

Yes if you're replacing windows, you have to do like for like, and yes it's more expensive, because again you're maintaining the building for historical purposes, but I've no clue why it would take two years to get planning permission to replace three sash windows with like for like unless the poster was trying to do something different and the planners weren't allowing it.

I love living in a listed building, I have no desire to rip out the original features or change the fabric of the building, so for us it's all good. We have renovated inside, but it's things like replacing the kitchen, new decor, sanding the floors etc, none of which need planning permission, and when we replace the bathroom next year that won't need planning permission either.