To refuse to have BIL in my home again?

[mediumbrownmug]

I haven't bothered to name change, as I don't care if this is recognized. My BIL is in his mid twenties, and has graduated with a degree. He's been screened for everything, and while he has ADD (like my DH), there are no other issues present.

Tonight we had my MIL and BIL (who lives with her) over for pizza to spend time with our DS, who is two years old. The invitation was issued to them both. While DH was out picking up the pizza (they arrived as he was leaving, as they showed up a bit early), BIL repeatedly teased my son over the course of the night, even worse than the last few times we were all together. (To avoid a drip feed, yes, this has happened before, and each time he's been asked not to do this.)

Tonight DS was running around asking for a cookie, and BIL offered my toddler a closed fist and told him he had a cookie in it for him (he didn't), and promised to give him the non-existent cookie if he did what BIL wanted. I obviously intervened immediately and told DS BIL didn't have a cookie and asked him not to tease DS as it would hurt his feelings and make him cry. BIL laughed it off and claimed DS didn't understand. I assured him he did. MIL didn't say much, but appeared to back me up. This happened again with something else (a toy), and again I intervened.

DH came home with the pizza, and BIL quickly grabbed a slice while we were getting DS's piece cut up as it was too hot for DS to eat. BIL proceeded to tease DS, dangling his pizza in front of him and asking if he wanted it, saying he couldn't have any. Then he started eating it in front of him and making "mmm" sounds, and taunting DS.

DH intervened immediately, telling him in no uncertain terms not to tease our son like a dog. BIL laughed it off yet again, saying DS "didn't understand" (he certainly did). MIL chimed in backing DH up. BIL laughed her off, too. Finally, I stepped in, stopped the conversation, and told BIL flatly not to tease our son. While that was all I said, I can be quite intimidating and BIL was embarrassed at not being able to pass it off as a joke.

That seemed the end of it, but throughout the night he continued pretending he was going to take my DS's candy out of his hand, etc. AIBU to not have him over anymore? Taunting DS with our food (that we paid for) in our house seems to be taking it a bit far. Especially since the only acknowledgement he gave was an "ok" and not an actual apology. At this point, I can't see having him over for holidays either, as I don't want DS's holidays spoiled. DH agrees, saying that if he wants to see his brother he can do it on his own (which obviously is fine).

We're reasonably certain that we can still see MIL on her own without BIL, but would rather there not be a problem as they live together. Thoughts appreciated.

OP did your DH and BIL have an aunt or uncle like this when they were small. I think that sometimes behaviour like this is learned at an early age and while you and DH may not approve of your DS being teased in this manner your BIL may see no harm in it as he was treated the same way and feels he is being a good uncle. Of course I may be way off its just a thought. I don't approve of it either I'm just playing Devils Advocate.

I wouldn't want a bully around my child and frankly that's what he is. Picking on a toddler continuously is utterly cruel.

Both my uncles on my mums side were like that, aswell as playing rough with us and playing pranks on us. They were always my favourites compared to my dads stuffy uptight relatives. Honestly they are still the same. I love watching them with my children now because they are a lot more savvy than I was and give it back just as much.

But I understand people have different boundaries and sense of humour is so subjective. So as you are not happy with it and you have repeatedly said this to him then I'd say yanbu.

Other posters are right OP Nurodiversity isn't an excuse. I'm autistic, have ADHD and various other LD's and I don't act like this with my nieces and nephews and despite having NT siblings I'm the registered choice of guardian of three different sisters children and my oldest nieces if anything happens to any of them or their partners.

Your doing the right thing calling him out on it and protecting your son from his abuse. And it's great your husband is on your side.

Other posters are right OP Nurodiversity isn't an excuse. I'm autistic, have ADHD and various other LD's and I don't act like this with my nieces and nephews and despite having NT siblings I'm the registered choice of guardian of three different sisters children and my oldest nieces if anything happens to any of them or their partners.

Your doing the right thing calling him out on it and protecting your son from his abuse. And it's great your husband is on your side.

Other posters are right OP Nurodiversity isn't an excuse. I'm autistic, have ADHD and various other LD's and I don't act like this with my nieces and nephews and despite having NT siblings I'm the registered choice of guardian of three different sisters children and my oldest nieces if anything happens to any of them or their partners.

Your doing the right thing calling him out on it and protecting your son from his abuse. And it's great your husband is on your side.

Maybe hes just awkward around small children as he has none of his own. Tbh hes not actually hurting your ds but you're getting rather wound up. Have a nice quiet word with him yourself not everyones a natural earth mother and loved 2 year olds. Cut the guy some slack.

@madroid Your comments are abhorrent. A child does NOT need to be teased just to not grow up spoiled. There is a medium between the two. Teasing any child is not on, it is abusive! You don't need to be cruel and sadistic.

OP, I was about 3 when a next door neighbour's older child teased me with lollies. Giving me one, then finding out it was stone wrapped in lolly paper. Lucky I didn't swallow it! He did this a few times. I am 42 now and still remember it. You are right to put a stop to it.

It doesn't sounds that unusual to me- I remember /have seen people teasing young children by holding things out of reach (favourite teddies for example)- I think most of the time its an attempt to be funny/amusing- sometimes the children find it amusing up to a point and then get frustrated and the adults don't know when to stop- other times the children never find it amusing. It really irritates me to see but tbh I've seen DS laughing when DP does it to him; my irritation is because I know DS will stop finding it funny before DP stops doing it and it'll end in tears.
I think you are overreacting - it doesn't sounds like BiL was doing it to be mean - he just thought it was funny; maybe he didn't know that your son didn't like it given you immediately stepped in - I agree with the others to just tell him other things to do

Some of my IL's used to behave a bit like this with my DS when he was younger. It drove me MAD. I am very non confrontational but one day I absolutely snapped at SIL - she spent the whole evening winding him up, then waded in telling him off when I was handling the inevitable meltdown that followed.
Things were a little awkward between us for a while, but her behaviour did improve after that. He is now 5 and she is fine with him.
I would say, she is a perfectly normal, nice, intelligent person - she simply didn't know how to interact with young children and her awkward attempt at playing came out as age innapropriate and therefore unpleasant teasing.
I suggest you/DH have a word with BIL when DS is not there, explain why his behaviour is not okay, maybe suggest some things he could do to connect instead? If he still refuses to see an issue, it would be fair to try to limit contact with him while DS is young, but an outright ban from your house seems a little extreme unless you think he is actually being intentionally nasty or abusive.

Your bil sounds like a complete idiot. A 2yr old will not 'get the joke' like an older kid might. Be honest and tell him clearly to stop otherwise he won't be invited round again.

I think you are being melodramatic (esp about "witholding food" - your son had a plate of pizza in front of him, he wasn't being made to starve).

The uncle sounds annoying. People on MN seem to have no tolerance for annoying. I think that's really sad, and you (and your son) will miss out on relationships with great people because of your unwillingness to put up with other people's flaws.

I had an uncle like this. It was confusing and interesting and fun to be around him, and I'm so glad I was.

I think this person's flaws outweigh the good parts right now. They could always try again when DS is older.

@SaltSpoon Re-read the OP's posts. Her son did not have any plate in front of him at that time. It appears you think teasing, tormenting and being abusive is mere 'annoying'. It is not. It is not over-reacting at all, in the slightest. It is abusive behaviour and it shocks me that people think it's no big deal. She said her son looked bewildered and sad. THAT, should be the clue.

I think there are two camps; people who were probably bullies at school and still see similar behaviour as no big deal, and those of us who were victims of this sort of treatment and know that it is a big deal. Those in the first camp will never understand because they really don't think their behaviour was/or this bullying by the uncle was wrong.

Despite attempts at educating people as to how serious bullying is and how it affects you for the rest of your life (and just read some of the posts on here from those who say they hated being near their uncle/relative who tormented them to see it is DEFINITELY NOT an over-reaction and it does stay with you), there are some who still don't have the ability or social skills to understand.

One of my BIL has severe learning disabilities. He is much loved and his behaviour tolerated by his family, all as it should be. However I felt that his behaviour to my DC when they were children erred on the side of cruelty and starting becoming more dangerous, but the rest of the family thought I was being a bit precious. It all came to a head when he suddenly picked up my two year old and threw her into a swimming pool in a garden we were visiting. My husband and I, both fully dressed, were in after her in seconds and no harm was done. But I put my foot down after that and made it clear my responsibility was to my children and I wouldn't tolerate any more 'teasing' from their uncle.

Describing this behaviour as abuse diminishes true child abuse. There are many ways of treating children that aren't ideal, that may have a negative impact, but are not abuse. I am sure every single one of us has experienced this kind of behaviour or worse as children, and we are not all abuse survivors.

Sometimes the discomfort, pain, disappointment or stress children experience helps them to grow up resilient - especially if adults encourage them to meet these challenges in that way. For example, rather than simply taking the situation completely away from your son and shutting the uncle down, could you help him cope? (Eg: saying "hmmmm - Do you believe uncle about the cookie? Or do you think he's being a silly billy? I think he might be being a silly billy - let's find out together!)

I grew up with my father constantly teasing me. Every time he would 'beat' me at things, he would tell me "Don't worry - it's not your fault you have no brains" in a jokey voice. It was one of his main ways of relating - catching me out in tricks, and then telling the stories about it for years after. He thought it was fun. And I laughed a lot in my childhood, playing these 'games'. I do realise this had a negative impact on me - I have a fear of 'humiliation' that makes me quite guarded. However, I think I also benefited - I learned to try my best at things even when the odds were against me, built my physical and intellectual agility, my willingness to compete, and my resilience against failure. being told I didn't have brains may be one reason I pushed myself all the way to getting a PhD!

I think my dad needed to build up his own self esteem by 'besting me' - so his motivation wasn't pure. But I think he also wanted to play with me and relate to me in the best way he knew how. It is not black and white. And I certainly wasn't abused.

I think our job as parents is to help kids encounter and react well to all kinds of behaviour and challenges and to shelter them from ones they truly can't cope with. I think if you sense deep down that your BIL's motivation is truly to harm your child, then absolutely best to cut him off. But otherwise, I would support your BIL in doing things differently and support your son in responding in a way that builds his resilience.

I have a 21 year old son with ADHD, not a severe case but evident nontheless. He loves all his little cousins and is a very smart young adult but we have had to reign him in when it comes to his interaction with the kids. He is immature for his age and tends to get overexcited and does not always consider the consequences of his actions or consider the feelings of others.
I have found the best way to deal with this is to engage with him during visits and not allow him to get too involved with the kids, no rough playing and reminding him to watch his language around the younger ones. I know how you must feel frustrated at his lack of empathy and obviously protective of your youngster, but I would encourage him to be in the 'adult' camp and less in the 'kiddie' camp when he visits, and tolerate as best you can til he matures a bit. If it's any consolation, my son is gradually becoming less annoying and more responsible in his attitude, but it takes time. For the record his cousins absolutely adore him and always make a beeline for him when family visits.

Lindy just like you my son has adhd and this post makes me so sad, my son is very impulsive and does things without thinking as he doesn’t realise that it may be harmful. I think telling him not to do it is fine and keep telling him but don’t embarrass him he obviously doesn’t get that it’s wrong

These sorts of people hate to be teased themselves. If you have to see him again, try it and watch the strop he’ll get into.

@BraveGoldie - I disagree that calling this abuse diminishes 'true' child abuse.

Sadly abuse is not a binary thing - there are levels of abuse, so just because a behaviour is not at the worst level of child abuse, doesn't stop it being abusive, imo. And the damage done by lower level abuse can be life long, as I know myself. I was bullied at school - verbal bullying and exclusion, nothing physical - but it has screwed me up massively - I have been diagnosed with depression and anxiety, and have very low self esteem.

The bullying was over 40 years ago, but the effects are still blighting my life, despite therapy and medication, and everything I have done to tackle it.

There's a fairly easy way to see whether 'teasing' behaviour is socially-inept attempts to have fun or whether it's bullying - does the person do it to anyone who either responds in kind or is big enough to give them a fucking smack? If it's only little kids, smaller people or those with less power (eg service staff in restaurants) then the person who does it is a prick.

Rather than formally black list him, just stop inviting him round. Do it on your terms. That's all I would say.

Least said, soonest mended.

Why is fooling around abuse? Trust me, this isn't and ds will come across goofing around throughout childhood at least. You need to teach him how to deal with it.

Try LAUGHING. A short laugh and a wink. "Haha, Isn't Uncle Knobbly silly?"

In my ancient times, as a child, bachelor uncles were known to be socially awkward with children. We were taught (or taught our children) how to deal with them bc good manners means if you're the hostess, you make everyone feel comfortable. Including your mother in law.

My grandfather used to do things like this and it was a joke. Yes. A joke. One of those things that nobody thinks about without condemnation anymore.

As important as our dc are to us, the world doesn't revolve around them to anyone else. Don't encourage your bil if it annoys you, but teaching our dc how to deal with teasing (it wasn't as if he wasn't getting any dinner. It was just delayed a few minutes) is a life skill.

EVEN if he was being mean, laughing at him is the way to deal with bullies. Telling them off is only taking away from a nice evening. Lighten up. Tell your ds after they go home that Uncle Knobbly is a dummy.

Dc take their cues from us. If you laugh it off (yes, i know, you don't think it's funny), dc will too and your dh and mil can relax and enjoy the evening.

OR you could, instead of reacting defensively, teach bil how to play with your son. Give him a toy and show him how. That's a life skill too.
I despair of this world sometimes.

And, OP, your description of your bil sounds like you don't like him (lazy jerk still living at home basically); maybe you don't like him for more than this reason?

Fooling around is abuse when it upsets one party, and when the person doing the fooling around, and upsetting the other person carries on upsetting the other person despite being asked to stop, @Catsinthecupboard.

And there are accounts on this thread from MNers who, as children, were on the receiving end of this sort of ‘fooling around’ and whose parents laughed it off or did not defend them, and they have told us how damaging that was - not only was a family member doing something to them that they found upsetting and unkind, but their parents did nothing about it - so showing a child how to deal with this behaviour by laughing it off does not always work.

I was the victim of bullies at school, and my mother told me to ignore them - they’d get bored and stop. They didn’t stop, and I learned that my mum would not be there to support me, defend me or help me deal with the bullies - a lesson that was almost as damaging to my mental health as the actual bullying. If my mum had laughed it off, or laughed at what was happening to me, I am sure it would have been just as hurtful, if not more.

In my opinion, bullying, and its nasty little sister ‘teasing’, should never be laughed off, and a child who is being deliberately upset by an adult deserves to have their parents defend them (in a proportionate fashion, of course). In my opinion only a bully or someone who approves of bullying would dispute this.