To think you need to jus lift your child?

[PugasaurusRex]

We had a visiting toddler today. When it was time to go he threw a mega tantrum and refused to leave or to return the toy he had hold of at the time.

His mother just stood there. And stood. And stood. Occasionally calling weakly "George... George.... Time to go now..." George would then bolt back into the playroom.

This went on for the best part of twenty minutes. Eventually he started throwing things at my elderly cat in a rage, so I had to go and physically remove George from the playroom, remove the toy from his grasp, and essentially post him out the front door with his mother trailing behind.

I've seen this in toddler groups too. Child won't put on shoes/leave/come away from the door, and instead of lifting them and removing them the parent just sort of stands and bleats at them.

Am I missing something? Is it now seen as wrong/too strict to tuck your child under your arm and match them off kicking and screaming? Mine are a little past that stage, but I remember it being a fun feature of their toddler years.

I feel that George's mother was quite happy for me to be the bad guy in this scenario... She's a perfectly fit woman so I'm not sure why else lifting the child was beyond her

I fell in with some of these gentle parenting nutters. There are a few on Instagram. They just happen to have very compliant kids but they think it’s because they’re gentle. It’s not, it’s probably because the child had inherited your personality which, if you’re into gentle parenting probably means you’re quite er gentle whereas I am hot headed and so is my DC
No nonsense is the way forward - Ive read alot of the stuff suggested by the gentle crew but my daughter would eat me alive if I went down that road. I’ve seen posts asking about gentle dentists, gentle hairdressers ffs

Once had a toddler standoff in Sainsbury's for an hour unable to get DC1 in car seat

I just can’t compute the sort of dereliction of parental duty that would lead to this.

I carried mine out of church at the weekend. He's 8 and nearly up to my shoulder (though thankfully a light build). SN referral finally accepted and assessment about to begin.

He'd reached sensory overload during a hymn (new realisation, I'll take ear defenders next time) and started off by snuggling up with us but was getting more squirmy and annoying. So I lugged him out to the lobby as a) it was a quiet time so not the time for a rational conversation b) he's not rational or cooperative once he's in that state.

Once we were out in the lobby, we could actually talk about what the problem was.

He's been lugged out of so many places over the years. The phase that we didn't was when I was heavily pregnant and on crutches and couldn't even bend to his level due to awful pelvic pain so didn't really have any option other than wait it out. He was well trained to walk nicely next to me as there was no other option... well unless he was polishing the floor with a tantrum, but it is increasing looking like it was undiagnosed SN.

When he's in a rational state he's a delight and very concientious. He masks beautifully at school.

His sibling is emotionally so different and has rarely needed removing and does take it seriously when his behaviour results in some kind of consequence.

We were out with SIL me and DH counted she threatened to take nephew home 16 times for misbehaving!!!! She didn’t and nephew knew she wouldn’t.
Much more of this crap parenting while nephew is young and she wonders why nephew is now a little shit and a bully

These are the same parents who struggle / refuse to make their children take antibiotics. No child wants to take medication but if you don't man up and be the grownup here your child will be admitted and have to have a cannula and which is far more traumatic than a bit of a nasty taste. The amount of parents i used to see who didn't appreciate it was their inability to make their child take antibiotics that had caused sepsis. Or asthmatic children who's parents disliked using the spacer and the puffer properly so they were admitted for exacerbation of asthma and I would have to do exactly what they should have done at home but if it made their child cry (it usually does) then they got upset, but if they'd got their child used to it at home it's not as bad.

Toddlers are little terrorists. I refuse to negotiate with terrorists 😁

YANBU. I've had to say this to DH before about our 2 year old 'just pick him up!'

My late mum spoke her mind. She was once working in a small sweet shop (30 years ago). A mother comes in and asks young darling what would you like, this went on for ages, little darling was snarky saying no to everything. Eventually my.mother roars 'by God if that was my child they'd be dam grateful to get anything'. The mother picked something out very quickly after that. My mum was sure she was going to get into trouble.
I'm like her, I have a low threshold for this kind of stuff. My dh is always bladdering onto kids when trying to get them to do something and it just ends up as constant noise and not get anywhere. That's when I do the swoop. Step and and take charge.
My friends little toddler got into a habit of kicking her very very often. She just kept walking away and it was getting worse. One day I couldn't watch it any longer so I showed her how to get him to stop (no slapping or anything, just little tactics) had it sorted in one day and it hasn't happened since. He's a lovely little chap thankfully.
Too long of a story but neighbours kids are a nightmare, they're known all around the area for being totally undisciplined. One of them one day grabbed my little 1 and half year old by the hair (white knuckle kind of grab) and viciously pulled his head so hard I had to pry him off. He spent the next hour following my lo around waiting for another opportunity to get him again. I had to watch him like a hawk. I was actually traumatized. Anyway I told the mother I couldn't ever have him around again. I didn't either.
5 years later, he has smashed a car window, a glass door, an iPad due to his temper and his parents still let him and his siblings away with murder.

I had a friend so this once- her and her dp could not get their dd in her car seat- she was about 9 months old, so not very difficult. So after painfully watching for 20 minutes, them trying, her screaming and arching her back, them taking her out again, I took her dd out of her arms, plonked her in her seat and done her up. I don’t know who was more shocked mum or dd.... but it worked 🤷🏻‍♀️ And we are still friends😂

Once they've got to about 2.5/3years and have a good level of understanding (but are still pains in the arse) I find something like this works quite well:

"I was going to ask to find your shoes and put them on but I don't think you'll be able to do it without a grown up to help... Can somebody come and help dd find her shoes, she's not big enough to do it herself yet... ". Never does it get done faster or with more enthusiasm.

Also, races: "Time to go to the toilet before leaving. I'm so much faster I can walk to the toilet and still get there first". Cue a little person zooming past you, delighted.

On the really trying, exhausted days I often forget this tactic and make the mistake of saying a plain old "time to put your shoes on", to which the answer is of course "no", requiring counting or me doing it for them whilst they tantrum. I don't pander to a tantrum but I'd always rather avoid one where possible!

Those of you who are good at getting kids in car seats/ prams, or getting child onto scales or under height-measuring caliper or whatever:

DS is 2.5, was something like 105cm and 16 ish kg when measured a few months ago, so very very tall and pretty heavy for his age.

He is under referral for ASD, is extremely sensitive to noise, is extremely anxious, and when at the Dr or hospital, inclined to bolt, then when caught, scream the place down and go into full-on meltdown.

In less stressful situations he laughs in my face if I do the scary voice, and escalates cheekinesses in response. Scary voice has never worked - the only thing that does is physically removing him from situations.

However, I cannot physically wrestle him into the pram or carseat, or force him to stay on the scales or get his height measured or whatever, or pull him out of the swing, when he's heading for a meltdown. He's too strong. And it's not always possible to head off the meltdown by endless advance planning/distraction as per How to Talk So Kids Will Listen.

Where do I get an effective scary voice?

When I'd done my back in or dislocated my shoulder, I bleated, rather than risk dropping an angry handbag (reins/dungarees) or putting myself into A&E.

Well, I did until I got fed up with it when she was 4 - three days practically crying with pain and frustration in the school playground where Madam pelted off into the distance, followed by the cowbag dashing off with her mate into the woods and not coming out for 45 minutes. DD (10) had to go in there on her own to look for her, because I just couldn't do it (I tried, but there was just no way I could manage without becoming completely incapacitated, and it was before mobile phones were commonplace).

I started using the voice I do for animals. Day five, we were on the bus. Still in agony, but we needed food and the offspring were capable of carrying it.

[child] Sit back down please.

No!

[child] come and sit down.

Go 'Way!

[deep breath]

SIT!!!

Child dropped to the floor and sat. Older Offspring and other passengers were desperately trying to hold back laughter.

Mind you, when she had one of her moments, it wouldn't have taken a bad back for me to want to leave her at a playdate.

@MitziK maybe this is the problem. I've never been any good with animals either... dogs can bail me up in the street for ages, I can shout myself hoarse and the buggers never listen....

Oh, I'm much better with animals than I am with people.

But I did teach each of the mutts whole body gestures for recall, as they all went profoundly deaf when there was something dead and smelly more interesting to investigate.

Think Y of the YMCA dance.

DOG! [I make Y stance]. Dog glances towards me in the distance, realises this is the Imma Get a Snack Stance. Freezes.

[Whole body sweeping motion, bringing arms down to in front of me with a high pitched, happy COME!]

Dog sprints at full speed across field, bounding over benches, past other dogs, branches, dead hedgehogs, etc and barrels up to my feet. Big fuss, clip lead on and Snack. Sometimes, dog got let off again, sometimes not - dog never knew which, so the call was to get a snack, not End of Playtime. I only ever yelled for DOG once, if he didn't hear, I wasn't about to knacker my throat doing it repeatedly, he was a dog, after all, a predator - they have to keep half an eye on the horizon, that's what they do.

I can even send DTwatCats in various directions with a look and finger gesture. At close range, eyebrows are the key, at distance, most animals need obvious shapes, because that's how they hunt/identify predators.

I did think that I should probably have got a puppy

By the way, Scary Voice comes from your diaphragm. Scary Voice only comes out with Scary Eyebrows. Scary Eyebrows and a tilt of the head can work independently of Scary Voice. Discreet hand signals can convey a load of instructions without a single word being uttered.

Turned out that school children are very effectively controlled by the non verbal communication, as they're surrounded by so much noise, they just can't hear anything you say to them at times and shouting is just background noise to them. It's exceedingly handy during assembly or silent working.

I've shouted twice in five years at work. On both occasions, the offending kids jumped two foot in the air. They deserved it both times (imminent danger to expensive property or themselves).

I just can’t compute the sort of dereliction of parental duty that would lead to this.

It was clearly told as an admission of a parenting failure day! It's not like I was trying to say that's how to do it!

I'm sure you can imagine various reasons why people have to work a bit harder to step up on occasion. I'm sure you can imagine a day where things don't go to plan and the sort of reasons that might contribute to that.

"Where do I get an effective scary voice?" Low, clipped, well projected - from the gut not the throat. Don't use long words or sentences. In my experience.

"Stop it now"

"Look at me!" - also works as distraction

"Sit!"

Yes avoiding a tantrum in the first place is the ideal - not always possible and actually testing boundaries is a normal part of development too. I have a dear friend who's son has a learning disability part of which is that he is extremely pliant/biddable, the complete lack of boundary testing was one of the early indications that made her realise there was an issue - she'd give anything for him to have a tantrum.

Christ, I was beginning to feel like the last parent alive doing the grab-and-go.

The most annoying incidence I've experienced of this was when I took DD to a playgroup and another toddler snatched a ball off her so hard that she face planted on the floor and also ended up with a nasty scratch across her nose. It honestly didn't phase me at that point as DD has her own moments (as every toddler does) with learning to play nicely, until...

The mum comes over, softly, softly, "Ooh, do you think someone else might have been playing with that?" No call of an apology, despite my DD screaming on the floor at that point.

"Do you think you might like to play on the slide instead?"

"What about if you play with little Jimmy?"

"Shall we find you another ball?"

And on, and on...

Throughout the entire negotiation, I'd been trying to calm DD down - distraction, cuddles, etc etc - but it got to a point where I'd had enough and just snapped, "You know what? It's fine, we were going to leave soon anyway, so he can just keep the ball." I mean, it was just fucking PAINFUL to listen to.

The mother did nothing even when he was throwing things at your cat???

I would be furious. That would be the last time I’d EVER let him get into my house.

YANBU

Actually the worst parenting I ever saw was in a situation where a child took another child’s favourite soft toy during a BBQ.

The child whom’s toy was taken was crying to her mum (who was hosting the BBQ in their garden) that the child of one of the visitors took her favourite soft toy from her. The mum of the toy snatcher overheard the whole conversation, looked proudly at her daughter and said: look how assertive she is! One day, she will be a high ranking manager in a corporate firm!
All I thought was that the only thing her daughter would become, is a nasty bully.

Parenting involves a lot of repetition and patience- it's amazing when they finally do get the message and do something for themselves.

But yes, at times you do have to bundle them under your arm and remove them from the situation.

When they are little anyway. Unfortunately I can't just bundle my 5'3" 8 stone 14 year old DD under my arm.

With young children sometimes you do need to physically move them. It is more difficult when a child doesn't start the not moving thing until they are 5 or 6. On saying that I occasionally did the picking up and carrying off until ds was about 9 or 10 and too heavy to safely do it.
Now he is a teen movement has to go at his pace but I may still have to keep a firm hold of him to stop him unknowingly doing something unsafe.

I am the parent of the exception to the rule on Brussels sprouts chocolate choice. There was a time that DD would have chosen sprouts rather than chocolate. confused goodness know why. Maybe some sensory reason due to autism?

I think so! I have twins (2.5) and both have ASD.

Twin 2: massively sensory seeking, had first taste of chocolate at Easter and then spent days having tantrums every time I went into the kitchen and came out without chocolate. He loves squash (although he only gets in when his blood sugars are low) and a month or so ago I made the mistake of giving him a normal crisp out of a packet I’d half finished while he was napping. Crisp packets must now be hidden from view at all times.

Twin 1 is another story - not sensory avoidant and only mild sensory seeking. I tried to give him chocolate too - he tasted a tiny bit, pulled a face and every time I gave him a small piece he threw it on the floor and cried. Tried hot chocolate at Christmas - threw it on the floor and cried. Got some gummy vitamin things, closest thing he’s ever had to sweets - he spits them out. However, he will sit and eat a plate full of broccoli and peas and then eat his brother’s (because he won’t eat them). His idea of the best snack ever is watermelon. He’s a strange child (not complaining 😂). He’s now rejecting all carbs except crumpets and sweet potato chips as long as there’s no hint of edge burning. He’s a conundrum. Who doesn’t like potato or pasta?!

A balance would be nicez

I still starting counting to 3 now even though DD is 12. Just the word ‘one’ usually does the trick. I too have no clue what I’d do if I got to 3 but it’s worked since she was a toddler as she knows I’m boss.

We’re also extremely close and she talks to me about anything so it’s a nice balance.

Know some parents from primary who did this ineffective gentle voice thing with their kids. Never actually enforcing anything or any rules. Oddly the two family’s I know closest who did this both have kids who struggle with behaviour now. I predicted it would but it’s a shame as things could have been different for them.

Must admit I’ve felt like picking up and removing other people’s kids sometimes when they fail to act but managed to reign in the urge