To think you need to jus lift your child?

[PugasaurusRex]

We had a visiting toddler today. When it was time to go he threw a mega tantrum and refused to leave or to return the toy he had hold of at the time.

His mother just stood there. And stood. And stood. Occasionally calling weakly "George... George.... Time to go now..." George would then bolt back into the playroom.

This went on for the best part of twenty minutes. Eventually he started throwing things at my elderly cat in a rage, so I had to go and physically remove George from the playroom, remove the toy from his grasp, and essentially post him out the front door with his mother trailing behind.

I've seen this in toddler groups too. Child won't put on shoes/leave/come away from the door, and instead of lifting them and removing them the parent just sort of stands and bleats at them.

Am I missing something? Is it now seen as wrong/too strict to tuck your child under your arm and match them off kicking and screaming? Mine are a little past that stage, but I remember it being a fun feature of their toddler years.

I feel that George's mother was quite happy for me to be the bad guy in this scenario... She's a perfectly fit woman so I'm not sure why else lifting the child was beyond her

Dizzy
You are right. But, in DSD’s case, the advice made me reflect on what made her go a bit nuclear. And thus I learned to try to avoid her feeling backed into a corner/locked in a battle of wills eg by giving her carefully engineered ‘choices’.

I TOTALLY agree. I don't understand the trying to reason with a 2 year old who quite clearly won't be reasoned with. Obviously explain what's happening initially- but after even 5 mins take charge and adult!!! I'll never forget my cousin repeatedly asking in a soppy voice for his 2 year old son to stop hitting my son with a truck and to give the truck back, after the 3rd his I just walked up took the truck off him, he screamed, gave it to my son and turned my back on them to see to my son. 2 year olds are total egotists, don't let them take charge!!

My sister is like this with her DS. Whiny voice, pleading with him to do as he's asked, then loses it and smacks him.

My Dad is as bad with him. He phoned me once to ask for my help, so I popped to his house and asked what he needed. He said Grandson was refusing to put his shoes and socks on and had been for the last hour. Yes, an hour! I just used a stern voice and told him to put his socks and shoes on. Job done - 2 minutes.

My Dad and sister are like a bloody wet weekend and let him run rings round them. His behaviour now at 11 is shocking. (Not for me mind, I don't stand any messing)

ArgghhH! The grab and run! a parenting version of the bend and snap from from legally blonde - I no longer have toddlers, thank god, but leaving play dates can still sometimes be arduous. But I remember getting them to leave nursery was like that, especially if they where in the garden, so I did end up quite often doing the grab and run... and was quite happy that they seemed to like nursery. For play dates I now say if it's difficult at pick up, you won't be allowed 'round again. For a toddler when and then might work - but I assume parents that do this are in their own way trying to get the child to listen - ineffectively. I now do clear consequences, with a if/by but it's just rude to let that happen in someones house. But parenting isn't easy at all.... in any way...

I've read every single post in this thread as I really feel like I need some advice here. My 17 month old DS is great, thriving, sociable at nursery, eats and sleeps well, but he can throw a right old tantrum when he doesn't get what he wants.
I'm inclined to use distraction or simply saying No, you can't have /do etc. My problem is that I was raised by a thug of a father and a timid mouse of a mother. I can't bear the thought of ending up like either of them but I keep finding myself ranting and getting upset. I want him to be independent, learn skills and boundaries but its bloody hard to be firm without turning into a screechasaurus when its been beaten into you that power comes from fear.
Although I have surfboarded DS out of a shop when he wouldn't walk nicely wearing a wee backpack reins thing.

Stereo you'd probably like the Janet Lansbury books. And How To Talk for little kids.

Oh gosh. It’s deffo necessary some times to pick them up and get on with it.

I don’t like doing it though, my son is strong and so stuck in his ways, I’d have better luck picking up and washing a cat without getting scratched.

I always feel like I’m having to be really ungentle to pick him up and keep him safe in my arms, it’s horrible.

You can’t let a child ‘win’ in these situations though. They need to learn that sometimes you have to do things that you don’t want to because there isn’t any other choice.

Stereo,you set reasonable & achievable boundaries and reward compliance
Make a game of whatever you want to negotiate eg leaving nursery,getting dressed
Chose your task eg Can we get out before,get dressed before I count to 20,count down the tax, include halves and quarters. For me it works!every. time

Don’t just spring the task,you talk reinforce,remind about what you want. Heaps of praise & reinforcement

Distraction is great if all else fails. Mid tantrum I once shouted really enthusiastically Look at that! Pointed and said beautiful sky. It was so unexpected and enthusiastic it completely distracted from tantrum.

It is absolutely fine to negotiate with a child if they have the capacity and are not in a huge tantrum. But the negotiations have to be very small 😂 and not open ended with infinite choices

Also remember every time you screech at them they stop listening to what you say and just hear a noise

Agree make things into games and challenges and distractions but know when this is enough and stop when it isn’t working don’t keep trying. Small NT DC don’t really become fixated on things for very long, give countdowns but none if these work if the tantrum is in full swing. Swift exit and let them scream it out in private. Usually afterwards I would say ok would you like a cuddle now and 9/10 they do 😂

l was talking to my OH about this earlier. We remembered a time when we'd had the youngest (about 3 at the time) out in the snow. We got back home, little one was tired out but happy enough after making a snowman and throwing snowballs at us and everything in sight.
We had a second floor flat at the time. OH folded up the buggy and little one decided he wanted to walk upstairs on his own, so l took the buggy upstairs, put the kettle and the fire on and made the coffee.
Then l heard screaming. Looked over the stairwell, LO was making his way upstairs on all fours. "Tired, daddy!" but wouldn't suffer OH to pick him up and carry him, hence the screaming.
Twenty minutes later, the coffee's gone cold and he's still on his way, obviously tired out becausehe kept sitting down on the stairs for a rest. Every time OH tried to pick him up, he raised the roof. People were coming out of their flats to see what was going on. OH had finally had enough, picked him up, screaming "No, daddy, no!", and carried him upstairs, with various onlookers tutting and shaking their heads.
OH has just reminded youngest about this (he's 20 now!) and he says he can't remember it. He is lovely now though, very polite and sensible. Which l can't take any credit for, as he's my stepson. Fortunately his mum and my OH have always been fairly strict with the boys. When my OH told his mum about it, she said "you were exactly the same at that age!" She's very old school and didn't stand any nonsense!

I've just started a thread about the delights of my three year old 😭

Many a time just recently she's been tucked under my arm like a rugby ball and carted off. Like a pp she gets two warnings, one 'come here now please', one 'DD, I've asked you once now out X down and come here' and then she's removed physically.

She also gets picked up and made to brush her teeth/get dressed etc. I don't have time for pandering to a tot I'm afraid and I won't raise a child who thinks they can just do as they please.

Physical force/smacking etc definitely not ok. But physically removing a child or making them do something non negotiable - like being clean - that they need to just get in with I'm fine with as long as you don't hurt them!

YANBU OP.

If you don't leave with me now I will pick you up and you won't play with toys later/get a bedtime story/have favourite dessert or whatever. Said like it's meant. Can't stand pussyfooting parenting.

The trouble with 'gentle parenting', as in the 'oh no, don't do that please' when George is snatching things and being mean is that sometimes the other child has enough of it and reacts spectacularly.

DD1 did that. Incredibly placid and compliant child, didn't actually need to be cross with her except for the day she jumped into the road in front of a car whilst still holding my hand. But George kept on snatching the bucket she was filling with sand away from her. She was talking to him and saying 'don't snatch, it's rude'. By the third time, just as I was getting up to gently but firmly deal with the situation, in perfect slow motion, DD1 smacked George around the back of the head with the fancy metal spade.

George never snatched anything from her again. And DD never reacted like that again.

@jessebuni - I love your style!!! Mine's a baby yet but I will sooooo be following your method!

@MitziK that's not "gentle parenting", that's ineffective parenting without sensible boundaries.

How on earth do these kids cope at school?! No teacher with 28 other 4 year olds is going to “gentle parent” or pussyfoot around your kid just because you do are they? It’s not preparing the child for life.

YANBU you are very patient though. I would have gone in taken the toy of him and handed him to his mum well before 20 minutes had gone by.

It drives me crazy too

Pleading
Counting
Empty threats

Please just Grab and go.

Letsgoout - the voice alone is not enough, they respond to the voice because they know it indicates "mums had enough now and there will be consequences!" You HAVE to set boundaries, enforce them and follow through on consequences. Not just from a disciplinary perspective but then also the children know where they stand with you.

But of course if there's dx or suspected Sen or other issues then guidance on that needs to be taken into account too.

Where I struggled slightly was initially having unrealistic consequences like "you are NEVER being taken to soft play again!" (I wish!)

My own mum advised me on that one - don't paint yourself into a corner, start low and give yourself somewhere to go. Advice that came in particularly handy when the delightful teen years hit and the only consequence dd cared about was being grounded. So I would start with 1 days grounding and build from there.

I remember reading a thread about "gentle parenting" when I was still lurking. One very sensible poster came on to say that what op's (Iirc) sister was doing WASN'T "gentle parenting" as that doesn't advocate no discipline at all which is how her sister had interpreted it, but was "non parenting" which in her opinion - and I agree - is irresponsible and neglectful and potentially as damaging as abusive parenting.

SDTG absolutely re supernanny - but that's where she used to REALLY annoy me because she NEVER accounted for the fact that the relationship between parent and child means they know EXACTLY which buttons to press AND parents can get worn down by that constant effort, feel a guilt and conflict between their love for their child and the urge to nurture and care and their need to address negative behaviour.

I've also been a nanny and childminder, it's COMPLETELY different dealing with your own child, with the bond & history you have and where there's no end in sight to dealing with difficulties and doing it as a job when at a certain point in the day you get to "clock off" and it's not 24/7.

She always came over too critical and judgmental to me given she's not a mother herself.

But then I'll admit I'm highly critical of any self proclaimed "child expert" who isn't a parent themselves and when looking for sources of advice myself I dismissed books etc by people who weren't parents and ESPECIALLY by those who not only weren't parents but also had NO experience of caring for children in a home environment.

In the cases of where one parent isn't parenting - that's not only a shitty thing to do to your kids it's also a shitty thing to do to the other parent, your partner/spouse because you're deliberately manipulating the situation so they're always or mostly the "bad guy" which will affect their relationship with the dc negatively. It's selfish and I would say emotionally abusive.

Wouldn’t have these two in my life. That child will grow up not knowing the word ‘no’ or respecting other people, their space and belongings. Scary thought.

@Graphista - yes i agree re consequences. Sometimes it can be difficult to find useful ones though!

I should say that we have spent a lot of the past year with me wrestling surfboard-screeching DS into the pram to go home - the difficulty being that he usually actually wants to go home from playgroup because he doesn't like the noise - but when he's being a boundary-testing little sod in the toilets, the ideal consequence for everyone is "we're going home" - which is also his preferred outcome once he's calmed down after being told off.

Maybe I need to start an incentive thing at the end of the day - bubbles time on the verandah or something. THen bad behaviour consequence is loss of bubble time.

The SEN aspect is the 0-100 in 3 seconds meltdown where he's been in sensory overload for ages or can't manage the anxiety around Dr/hospital, and I'm trying to get through a normal day's worth of unchallenging stuff and he gets to the end of his tether. I do the lift and run where possible, but there are times where it's impossible, e.g. when you're in a consultant's appointment that you've waited for for over a year and desperately trying to have a shouted conversation while DS is screeching and kicking to get out of there, consultant (who has probably been too busy working to ever parent his kids) is looking at you as if to say "parent your sodding brat" ... arrggh. Thankfully many of the nurses are very kind and experienced even if they're not much help.

Sorry but I'm absolutely no expert on the Sen side of things.

Have you contacted support groups/charities for support/advice?

Positive reinforcement is also good of course.

As I say no expert but if playgroup is too much for him is it still worth going?

Are there any particularly geared toward Sen in your area? I have a friend who used one but she lives in a large town whereas I know we don't have anything like that where I live, so I appreciate it may not be available.

It's trickier when there's medical conditions to take into consideration.

I think the main problem is the worry of being judged for being too harsh.
Everyone has an opinion when a parent doesn't parent how they think they should so a lot of parents wonder if they're being too harsh, too soft etc

The mother sounds pathetic, you did the right thing.
Children need discipline, authority and boundaries to learn what is socially acceptable.
You can always spot the entitled children a few years down the line.