To want to know it the IAAF are going to introduce upper levels of endogenous testosterone for male athletes?

[Namestheyareachangin]

Totally horrified by the ruling on Caster Semenya which essentially robs her off her career and penalises her for the strength and power that is her birthright as a human being.

The justification for this is that her testosterone levels put her beyond an acceptable upper limit to qualify to compete as a woman (while of course she remains prohibited from competing as a man).

So I want to know at what level of testosterone naturally present male athletes will be ruled out of the human race? Or is it only women who can be too strong,too fast, too good to be allowed to compete in their category?

I completely agree with you. Any why does the iaaf only consider this an issue in the events Semenya can do?

Poor woman must feel so persecuted I think as a message minimum the IAAF should acknowledge by their rules they are effectively ruling her out of the sport she has trained for all her life, ending her career, and should compensate her (and any other athletes affected) for loss of potential earnings. It's so unjust to throw her under the bus like this.

Why is she prohibited from competing as a man?

I think chromosomally she is male, with a disorder of development, and her testosterone levels fall within what is normal for men, so wouldn't be barred from competing.

Yes, as they were saying on the radio, how is it different to a tall basketball player or a swimmer with extra large feet? It's a natural difference which gives a sporting advantage.

Caster can compete as a man if she wants to.

I agree with Sharron Davies that sport should be split XX/XY. Caster is XY.

It is not fair on the other women if caster competes against them as she is XY.

There are several threads already on this:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3511026-Caster-Semenya

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3575644-To-wonder-why-theres-such-a-focus-on-Caster-Semenya-when-trans-athletes-like-Rachel-McKinnon-are-taking-womens-medals-and-no-one-bats-an-eyelid

This is an absolute scandal.

There is a petition going round for those wanting to sign chng.it/pdjGt6kx7m

This is an absolute scandal

You think women having their own sports to fairly compete in is an absolute scandal

What is an absolute scandal is women being robbed of medals by unfair rules and competitors.

yes, it's a natural difference that gives an advantage - i.e., the advantage men have over women. It's really unfortunate for her, but if she is physically male, then competing with XX women is unfair. That's very different from someone being tall or having extra large feet, because we don't already divide the playing field along those lines. We do divide it along sex. So having the advantages of a male means she can't compete in the XX women category.

@repealtheGRA

What about people who are xxy or xyy?

The IAAF do not deny she is a woman, they conducted an intrusive battery of tests to ascertain this. They should allow her to compete as a woman.

Why is it a scandal? No one has the god given right to an Olympic place. It's unfortunate, but life's like that sometime. Whilst CS is a woman, she has unfortunately discovered she has a Y, which means she is biologically male and has the resultant physical attributes and strength of a male.

how is it different to a tall basketball player or a swimmer with extra large feet
If those physical attributes are entirely consistent with the biological sex of the person it's perfectly reasonable for them to be included. Where attributes of advantage are not consistent with the sex category of the competitor that's not reasonable.

xxy is chromosomally male, as it's the presence of a Y chromosome (and the sensitivity to the male hormones) that cause male development. An extra 'x' doesn't change that.

XYY is impossible.

She is XY, with at least some sensitivity to androgens, which means that she has the male physical advantages.

they conducted an intrusive battery of tests to ascertain this.

Intrusive testing is part and parcel of every elite athletes life. Nothing at all wrong with that.

Namestheyareachangin

What about people who are xxy or xyy?

They are male... both of those syndromes only affect males. They can compete in XY division.

So what is your question?

What about people who are xxy or xyy?

XXY go in with XY and I see you’ve already been told XYY is impossible.

Turner Syndrome? They only have one X, are they allowed in the XX division?

I see you’ve already been told XYY is impossible

Sorry my bad, that’s wrong, also in XY.

Any why does the iaaf only consider this an issue in the events Semenya can do?

As far as I know they restricted the application of the ruling to the events for which they had a body of evidence. Further studies need to be done if this is to be extended to other events.

Are you saying as far as you're concerned no-one with a DSD is woman enough to compete in the "XX division" you just invented to serve your purpose?

Turner Syndrome? They only have one X, are they allowed in the XX division?

Yes.

The point being made here is Y = Male as well you know.

ClareCais if you’re lurking, sorry, I know this is shit for you.

Where does it say she’s prohibited from competing as a man?

Should be a clear cut case for her lawyers to win:

• DSD XY who appeared female at birth
• abnormal virilisation at puberty
• subsequently found to be XY and produces male levels of testosterone.
• doesn’t want to suppress testosterone to run against women

Where’s the difficulty?

Sport is split between men and women for a reason. There is a huge advantage men have with the extra testosterone. Allowing CS and others to compete as female when they are XY removes the female sport category altogether. I feel for her but it would be the end of women's sport. It is not a natural advantage, it is that she is entered into the incorrect category. Like a heavy rower being entered into the lightweights. The categories either need to be stuck to, or abolished altogether, therefore killing off women's sport totally. Absolutely agree with the ruling but it should be for all events, in all sports with men's/women's divisions, not just some.

Sorry, yes I see that there can also (very rarely) be XYY. Same point, though. Y chromosome plus sensitivity to androgens = male.

The XX category (or XO) , or actually I think could also include XY with complete androgen insensitivity, is not just made up for no reason, but basically includes those who have not had the virilizing effects of male hormones and development. This makes for a sensible biological split between the categories, and if we are going to divide sport along sex lines, then it is sensible to divide it this way. Otherwise, they could divide it in different ways (by height or weight or whatever) and then people would have to fit into those categories.

This is an absolute scandal.

No it isn’t? How weird. This is a well considered science-based decision, in an extremely complex situation that concluded with what is the most fair and biologically accurate approach. Caster is legally a woman, but in fact is XY. Sport is sex separated, and should, for what are hopefully obvious reasons, remain that way in order for women to be able to compete in sports fairly. XY should remain excluded from XX sporting events.

ClareCais if you’re lurking, sorry, I know this is shit for you. flowers

CAIS has been accounted for in the IAAF’s ruling though (and there have always been additional provisions made for ages). The IAAF stages that DSD XY individuals who are responsive to androgens need to have their testosterone lowered.

CAIS are completely, totally unresponsive (hence the name, Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome) so testosterone levels are irrelevant. They can’t confer any physiological advantage (although, interestingly, CAIS individuals are over represented at the Olympics cf the general population).

Clare was upset because of earlier conversations, not the IAAF ruling.