To want to know it the IAAF are going to introduce upper levels of endogenous testosterone for male athletes?

[Namestheyareachangin]

Totally horrified by the ruling on Caster Semenya which essentially robs her off her career and penalises her for the strength and power that is her birthright as a human being.

The justification for this is that her testosterone levels put her beyond an acceptable upper limit to qualify to compete as a woman (while of course she remains prohibited from competing as a man).

So I want to know at what level of testosterone naturally present male athletes will be ruled out of the human race? Or is it only women who can be too strong,too fast, too good to be allowed to compete in their category?

She has to take meds to reduce her NATURALLY OCCURING testosterone levels if she wants to complete.

Naturally occurring for a male. The fact that she does not have a penis does not make her female. The fact that her sex was incorrectly identified at birth does not make her female. The fact she races as a woman does not make her female. She is not 'a female with naturally high testosterone' she is a male with DSD, and has internalised testes, sensitivity to androgens and went through puberty more similar to a male than a female. This is something that has been known for at least a decade.

It is completely different to something like producing less lactic acid. It isn't a quirk of biology making a female stronger or better at sport Than other females, it's is biology stopping a male's genitalia from developing correctly and as a result they were incorrectly identified as female.

It is immensely sad that DSDs aren't picked up earlier in some countries. It is awful that those with DSDs are intentionally selected and encouraged to continue in a professional sporting career by people that understand the advantage that the DSD gives them over women, resulting in situations like this. But it still doesn't mean they should be permitted to compete against women where their male physiology gives them an advantage.

No one is saying it's a trans issue. It is a specific issue to do with intersex people with DSD, XY chromosomes and androgen sensitivity competing against women with a clear advantage and eroding fairness in women's sport.

Several people have explained that it needs both a Y chromosome and sensitivity to androgens, and the ruling takes that into account.

Women with XY chromosomes who do not virilise will not be barred from competing as women.

I don't think a lot of the reporting is reflecting or explaining this.

I don't think a lot of the reporting is reflecting or explaining this

And I know exactly who I blame for reporting restrictions that prevent what is going on being clearly communicated to the public.

Much as I believe in Caster’s right to confidentiality for her medical condition it IS now in the public domain. And the corruption and politics around what has gone on does need to be discussed.

And the corruption and politics around what has gone on does need to be discussed.

Yes it does. I suspect everyone is too scared to.

If she said that she often felt more like a boy and her partner feels she is in a heterosexual relationship, etc, then I think that is worth listening to.

Indeed. The people pointing out that caster is male seem to be the ones who agreeing with caster's own identity.

the bottom line is lots of us are excluded from sports due to natural advantage or disadvantage. Such is life.

Not everything has to include everyone.

So let me see if I've got this right;

This person wants to compete with women, not men.

They were raised as a female because that's what they were classified as, at birth.

They are not living as a woman in their adult life, apart from when they compete.

This person has internal testes, XY genes(?) and produces testosterone, which their body is able to make use of.

If I were them I'd admit I had an unusual biological advantage and that I was not in fact a biological woman, which is who the category of women's sport is for. I'd retire until there was a section I could legally and honestly compete in.

She is not 'a female with naturally high testosterone' she is a male with DSD, and has internalised testes, sensitivity to androgens and went through puberty more similar to a male than a female. This is something that has been known for at least a decade.

Yep.

There is a lot of DSD whataboutism going on. Sure, there are some conditions such as CAIS where all external appearances will be 100% female (no uterus, blind vagina and no ovaries notwithstanding) but the ruling accounts for this. Individuals who have a XY DSD and are androgen responsive need to lower their testosterone.

I’d also be interested in hearing from women with PCOS whose testosterone was 5 or above. That’s very high for a woman, even with excessive androgens. And are they going to be elite athletes? Really?

the bottom line is lots of us are excluded from sports due to natural advantage or disadvantage. Such is life.

And yet Michael Phelps and his natural advantage is praised and allowed to compete without having to artificially raise his lactic acid production.

Lactic acid isn't a determinant of sex though. Not sure you've read the judgement...
if the federation chose to segregate based on lactic acid then you could be sure that there would be an issue.

damn please highlight where the IAAF have ruled on lactic acids levels in sport. I thought this was just about segregation by sex.

A difference to lactic acid production doesn't magically change Michael Phelps' sex. He still competes in the category for his sex. We do not have a requirement for everyone within a category to be physiologically identical, only that they need to be in the right category!

Damntheman there's no question about Phelps sex, he's male competing against males, it's a different situation.

She is intersex. She is neither properly male, nor properly female.

If she competes as a woman she has an unfair advantage.

But she's not good enough to compete as a man. Nobody would be complaining if she competed as a man because she wouldn't win anything (not at global level anyway).

A new category is needed for people who don't fit neatly into a biologically female or male category. I don't think she'd be on her own in it, the other two medalists in the 800m at the Rio Olympic may well qualify for that category too.

It's a personal tragedy for her, but it's not fair on all her biologically female competitors.

I’ve followed Caster’s story since I read this Ariel Levy article ten years ago:
www.newyorker.com/magazine/2009/11/30/eitheror

It’s an interesting read because it shows how long she’s been subjected to repeated and humiliating testing, and discusses the issues of sex/gender/relations in South Africa. The way she was raised and the people around her are not irrelevant. If you are raised in a country where being intersex is considered an obomination and/or something that simply doesn’t exist, how would you address that as a poor person on a township?

I completely understand the legal and scientific findings, and why they are important. I’m interested though, in the years and years of testing that she’s already gone through, and the misinformation about her secretly living as a man and somehow trying to hoodwink everyone into thinking she’s a woman. I think another massive issue for her, would be losing previous titles. She’s been tested so many times (for at least ten years) and still allowed continued to compete as a woman. Now she’s classified by the IAAF as a man - does she have to give it all back?

Every interview, book, the BET documentary, I’ve always understood Caster to identify as a woman. In another interview, she describes butting heads with her now wife, for being in the ladies toilets. She says that when they met in 2007 she was offended that Violet had assumed her to be a man, and again asserts that she is a woman. This does not sound like someone who considers themselves a man except for when they compete. Her parents raised her as a girl, she considers herself a woman. Link here:

www.timeslive.co.za/tshisa-live/tshisa-live/2017-08-08-casters-love-story-with-her-wife-she-thought-i-was-a-boy/

I’d also be interested in hearing from women with PCOS whose testosterone was 5 or above. That’s very high for a woman, even with excessive androgens. And are they going to be elite athletes? Really?

I was suspected PCOS, due to complex multiple hormone disorders- just found out about a new one last week! I had an endocrine collapse at one point and I did have high testosterone also, then super low ( for a woman ). I also know women diagnosed PCOS. These are complicated and often debilitating illnesses that affect all functioning of the body, depending on severity, and I can say with a lot of certainty that no, being elite athletes is not on the cards.

And realistically, if CS had chosen pretty much any other path, this wouldn't have been an issue.

Datun's quotation from the CAS ruling is very relevant and deserves to be repeated.

The Court of Arbitration for Sport states that the segregation of sport into women and men is separate from any legal status. It is to prevent XX people from having to compete with XY people who have benefited from the biological advantages that having testosterone has conferred on them.

It is not about being brought up as a woman or feeling like a woman, it is about the competitive advantage confered on an individual by virtue of the fact of the Y chromosome and the effect of testosterone through puberty and beyond.

FWIW, based on this, they do not appear to have followed through on this statement as XY have been granted permission to compete in an XX competition, the impact of testosterone through puberty is ignored and the permitted level of testosterone remains at a level, three times that of the top level of the range usually seen in XX persons.

I repeat, it is not about 'what defines a woman' in anything other than biology and for now, that is defined by the CAS as the presence of the Y chromosome and levels of testosterone which are consistent with the male chromosome and not the presence or absence of genitalia of either sex.

theWarOnPeace

I don't think people think Caster should give her winnings and titles back. Whether one thinks it's fair or not, she was competing within the rules set out.

And yes, I'm sure the constant testing was distressing. But, as it turned out, the results have since shown that she is competing unfairly now.

That first article you linked to doesn't appear, to me, to say that she considered herself female, particularly.

Also this sounds a bit cynical to me.

Coach Sako said, “a natural.” Even before Semenya left Limpopo for college, in Pretoria, she had won a gold medal in her event at the 2008 Commonwealth Youth Games, in Pune, India, with a time of 2:04 ... “I used to tell Caster that she must try her level best,” Sako said. “By performing the best, maybe good guys with big stomachs full of money will see her and then help her with schooling and the likes. That is the motivation.”

Her own coach:

Sako’s English was fluent but rough, and he frequently referred to Semenya as “he.” “Caster was very free when he is in the male company,” Sako said. “I remember one day I asked her, ‘Why are you always in the company of men?’ He said, ‘No, man, I don’t have something to say to girls, they talks nonsense. They are always out of order.’ ”

The second article is more nuanced but has Caster insisting they are female when first seeing her wife in the ladies maybe because "She was a runner and was being escorted by doping officials."

I think, what I'm trying to get at, apart from the rulings, is that I was under the impression that CS struggled immensely with their own feelings that they were female, and this is because they were actually female.

Knowing that they are male, and that CS knew that and feels very comfortable presenting as male, changes things, internally, for me.

Quite apart from the rulings.

I feel as though my perception was inaccurate and manipulated.

FWIW, based on this, they do not appear to have followed through on this statement as XY have been granted permission to compete in an XX competition, the impact of testosterone through puberty is ignored and the permitted level of testosterone remains at a level, three times that of the top level of the range usually seen in XX persons.

Quite. Blithely ignoring their own assertion!

I was suspected PCOS, due to complex multiple hormone disorders- just found out about a new one last week! I had an endocrine collapse at one point and I did have high testosterone also, then super low ( for a woman ). I also know women diagnosed PCOS. These are complicated and often debilitating illnesses that affect all functioning of the body, depending on severity, and I can say with a lot of certainty that no, being elite athletes is not on the cards.

That sounds terrible Jessica. I hope you’re ok

I do there think are a lot of mixed messages being sent by varying sports organizations on both trans and intersex athletes. It is really not helping the athletes or the public's understanding of either group, but it isn't anyone's birthright to compete professionally in sports and while I think the effects of hormone medication are underestimated, when it comes to 'messing with their natural body', this isn't much different to the pressure many elite women to be on female sex hormones through birth control to deal with the effects a menstrual cycle has on the body. Elite sports put a lot of pressure on the body, naturally and otherwise, these are already exceptional people - with or without other conditions. In restrictive sport competition, lines have to be drawn.

I do think some intersex people have been thrown under the bus and some of it has to do with the backlash against TRAs and a general misunderstanding that disorders of sex development. Pretty much any time this or any similar stories make the news, there are a lot of people who seem to think that all intersex people with a female phenotype are actually biologically male and/or have male level testosterone or that being intersex means being not male or female. Not all people with a male XY karyotype with a female phenotype will have male level testosterone, some it will be low even compared to most people with a female phenotype (though these people are unlikely to be athletes) and most intersex women with a female phenotype are biologically female. We all have a biological sex even within these wide range of conditions, even if the understanding for some of them is newer than others.

In general, we biologically sex by the gametes we do or would produce and socially we sex by phenotype as we have since well before humans knew about gametes and chromosomes and what the often spoken of pattern recognition is based on. I think going on that some intersex athletes 'are men' or that their birth certificates are wrong on karyotype alone oversimplifies the issue, but to have lines drawn for restrictive competetive sports, something will have to be picked for these cases - testosterone levels or Y chromosomes is a good option though it could also maybe work by which DSD or even which gene mutation within each DSD or other ways with the knowledge we have and are gaining through research. If we want restrictive sports to continue, we need firm rules that everyone follows and if we want women's sports to continue then that, more than ever, needs firm rules.

Yes, this will be unfortunate for a few athletes whose less severe variants of these conditions are caught later in life after years of training and there isn't really a way to be 100% inclusive with or without these kinds of measures, but these people are already exceptional and I don't think this is any more unfair than the many many other people who work for years towards a goal and are caught out or denied for one reason or another or that. Out of all the issues within the intersex communities like how some DSDs like access to medication and screenings, the issues around both cosmetic and critical surgeries, and many other medical and social issues, whether a few of us can compete in athletics on an elite level I think gets way more focus and energy than it really should. I know we can do more than one thing at a time, but it seems a bit much.

nolongersurprised
Thank you, that’s very kind of you. Im having a fairly good phase at the moment, I’m in early menopause so it’s up and down. I still don’t have it all clearly worked out, or know too much about my new disorder Hyperprolactinemia, but it’s certainly better than when I was bedridden! The NHS have been piss poor unfortunately. Thanks again.

There are upper testosterone limits for male athletes.

Boardman famously had to quit being a pro because of it (had medical reasons to take testosterone).

Testosterone has been said to be the fave drug for would-be cheats.