To want to know it the IAAF are going to introduce upper levels of endogenous testosterone for male athletes?

[Namestheyareachangin]

Totally horrified by the ruling on Caster Semenya which essentially robs her off her career and penalises her for the strength and power that is her birthright as a human being.

The justification for this is that her testosterone levels put her beyond an acceptable upper limit to qualify to compete as a woman (while of course she remains prohibited from competing as a man).

So I want to know at what level of testosterone naturally present male athletes will be ruled out of the human race? Or is it only women who can be too strong,too fast, too good to be allowed to compete in their category?

As expected, some of the people on this thread are just outright disgusting.

I agree with you OP, this ruling is crass and awful. Poor Semenya :( She has to take meds to reduce her NATURALLY OCCURING testosterone levels if she wants to complete. But when it's Michael Phelps producing half the normal amount of lactic acid, he is praised for how lucky he is to have such an immense genetic advantage. It's a revolting double standard, I'm disgusted.

I don't care enough to have looked closely at what the new rules are, obviously they may have defined "woman" for certain events by more than just testerone levels. My point is merely that they can define "woman" any way they want, and there's nothing wrong with that definition being different from the definition used in other contexts. The word "woman" does not have to have only one meaning! If their definition gets some people into a flap because it conflicts with some other idea they have of what "women" means, they can change the label. Maybe at the next olympics, instead of women's 800m, we'll have low-testosterone 800m!

Certainly it never occurred to me as a young teen that I might actually be a man,and to make sure I wasn't.

Nor I. But if I had gone through adolescence - or not gone through adolescence, as the case may be - and come out the other end with that set of physical characteristics, I might start to question it.

It’s a sad case, all round.

As expected, some of the people on this thread are just outright disgusting.

Why? Facts are facts. It’s really not disgusting to point out facts to people who seem confused or ignorant to these facts.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_classics/3293175-I-am-intersex-ask-me-anything

The OP from the above post was kind enough to answer all questions related to intersex people and how she came to know of her condition. She does have XY chromosomes but also a vagina and has always considered herself a woman. It's rude and ignorant saying that :"Jeez, she has got a Y chromosome, she's a man" or that she should suddenly start living like on.

I'd also like to know what qualifications have all these people saying she's a man and turning this story in a trans issue.

Two indian athletes cannot compete anymore, one of them being Santhi Soundarajan, due to AIS. They grew up in poverty and it never occurred to them or their parents that they were anything but women.

These ladies didn't wake up one day and chose to be men. If they were clearly men or women there would be no need to have a scientific definition of intersex.

so does the OP from that thread have the same DSD as Caster? If not, then it's irrelevant.

The more I read the more it sounds like Caster has never 'lived as a woman'. Maybe as a young girl, but not as an adult. Only a woman on the track.

The ruling states that biology trumps identity or feelings, unless I've misunderstood it.

Several people have explained that it needs both a Y chromosome and sensitivity to androgens, and the ruling takes that into account.

Women with XY chromosomes who do not virilise will not be barred from competing as women.

Comparisons to other athletes who have advantageous physical characdteristics like Michael Phelps aren't valid, because the sports field is not divided along those characteristics. It is already divided on sex, because that has been accepted as a difference significant enough to change performance. So someone who has been competing in what is essentially the wrong category - even if it was mistakenly, for some time - can't continue to do that with adaptations. It is not an unusual level of testosterone for a women, but a normal naturally occuring level for male bodies. It's not disgusting to point this out. Nor does it mean people do not have compassion or sympathy for athletes who have found themselves in this situation.

so does the OP from that thread have the same DSD as Caster? If not, then it's irrelevant.

No they don’t.

Nobody is turning this into a trans issue, nor saying that it is a choice.

They are explaining the science behind what makes her particular condition a male body, with some disordered development of external genitalia. An error of determining sex to begin with.

@B&C plenty of people on this thread want to exclude all XY people from being considered women at all, regardless of virilising. There is some extremism here and people are taking their anger over trans issues and using it to victimise intersex people.

Several people have explained that it needs both a Y chromosome and sensitivity to androgens, and the ruling takes that into account.

Women with XY chromosomes who do not virilise will not be barred from competing as women.

Important points that need highlighting for those still ignorant of the situation and the ruling.

Do they? I don't think that's true at all.

There is some extremism here and people are taking their anger over trans issues and using it to victimise intersex people.

Nobody is victimising intersex people. That’s a reach. Rules around sport and categories have existed for some time, they’re now adapted to deal with a complex issue. It had to be discussed as Caster, despite knowing of their advantage over women for some time, pursued it. The discussion is sensitive and difficult, but sensible and honest factual information is important, especially when media are misreporting.

Maybe at the next olympics, instead of women's 800m, we'll have low-testosterone 800m!

But that doesn't take into account the effects of testosterone during puberty.

Creating a male body with all its advantages isn't just negated by lowering the testosterone for 12 months.

I think that's part of the problem. The law says that you can change legally sex, but there are exceptions, and sport is one of them. It uses the concept that men have a physical advantage. But the IOC have conclude that this physical advantage is constituted by testosterone. And only by testosterone, it would appear.

Which doesn't seem to be the case, hence mediocre male athletes beating women's records.

peggy if you read all the explanations on the other thread, linked above, you'll see that there are two types of DSD which are similar. Both include having a Y chromosome. But, there is an additional factor that means you can utilise the testosterone made in one. That's the one that caster has.

There are some people who look exactly like women, despite the Y, for whom the testosterone cannot be utilised.

So although, technically, they would be considered male because of the Y chromosome, I don't think there's anyone pushing that point.

It's not the same in caster's case, because the undescended testicles produced testosterone during a male puberty.

It's different.

I can imagine it's quite distressing all round. But that can't stop people making decisions in sport.

Also interested that Caster is "a man" by some people's lights because she is in a lesbian marriage (culturally assuming the "male" role in a lesbian relationship is hardly unique to Semenya, it is a pattern seen in many lesbian relationships, I've seen many lesbian marriages where one party wears a suit and the other a big froofy frock - the paying of a dowry is surely just an extension of that in a more traditional and gender normative culture?). Because she wore "boy's clothes" - how many of those posting don't permit their daughters to wear trousers? Because she played with boys and preferred their company? Because she liked football ffs?

Good to know people are still so keen to police the boundaries of gendered behaviour.

The woman in question has testicles. It’s unfortunate for her obviously but if women with testicles can compete as women than they have a completely unfair advantage. Virtually no woman without testicles can compete on an even field.

Interestingly none of the news coverage actually states this fact out loud.

Also interested that Caster is "a man" by some people's lights because she is in a lesbian marriage

Nobody here has said that and I’ve not seen that once in any online commentary. Where are you getting that from? Her friends refer to her as he, she refers to girls and women as ‘them’ repeatedly in interviews, as if she doesn’t belong to that group, she paid a dowry and her wife says she is heterosexual. So seems that people are looking at the often claimed statement from Casters people that she ‘lives as a woman and always has’, and wondering if in practice that is what is truly happening.

This sets a dangerous precedent. Women with severe PCOS or certain tumours can have testosterone levels of over 5nmol. Why is it okay to restrict women but not then apply a testosterone cap to men too?

Namestheyareachangin

I hadn't realised caster's wife was a lesbian. I thought she was heterosexual.

Can you link to that?

Casters wife has stated she is not a lesbian. It is not a lesbian marriage

IAAF should acknowledge by their rules they are effectively ruling her out of the sport she has trained for all her life, ending her career, and should compensate her (and any other athletes affected) for loss of potential earnings

Absurd. Not prevented from competing AT ALL!

This sets a dangerous precedent. Women with severe PCOS or certain tumours can have testosterone levels of over 5nmol

Is that true? I thought the max with PCOS (which is XX) was 2nmol? Can one of the scientists let me know please?

There is some extremism here and people are taking their anger over trans issues and using it to victimise intersex people.

No they're not.

I don't really see extremism here either, more lack of understanding of some of the specific conditions.

When people are advocating that someone with XY chromosomes isn't considered a women/allowed to compete as a women, I think there is an implied assumption of the XY person being sensitive to testosterone and virilising. I don't think people are particularly talking about those for whom there is no virilising, simply because they aren't aware of that possibility, and thus they are usual XY as a short cut meaning XY+virilising.

Luckily the people who are actually making the decisions are those who have consulted specialists in the area, scientists who do know the details, and the actual rulings are more nuanced that presented here.

Also, I think the comments about Caster being seen as a man, not a lesbian etc, are made because of remarks Caster has made, not just from looking at the situation from the outside and judging on stereotypes, which I agree would be wrong. If she said that she often felt more like a boy and her partner feels she is in a heterosexual relationship, etc, then I think that is worth listening to.