To want to know it the IAAF are going to introduce upper levels of endogenous testosterone for male athletes?

[Namestheyareachangin]

Totally horrified by the ruling on Caster Semenya which essentially robs her off her career and penalises her for the strength and power that is her birthright as a human being.

The justification for this is that her testosterone levels put her beyond an acceptable upper limit to qualify to compete as a woman (while of course she remains prohibited from competing as a man).

So I want to know at what level of testosterone naturally present male athletes will be ruled out of the human race? Or is it only women who can be too strong,too fast, too good to be allowed to compete in their category?

As I understand it, CS appears female, was raised female but has no uterus or ovaries. She has internal testes and XY chromosomes. Which means she's male. I don't think she should be competing against women regardless of testosterone levels. She's already had the benefits of a male puberty.

@Prawnofthepatriarchy

Do you think she is entitled to any consideration or compensation, given that when she devoted her life to this sport no-one told her on what basis she would ultimately be required to justify the womanhood she had taken for granted all her life (as do we all who are born "appearing female")? Certainly it never occurred to me as a young teen that I might actually be a man,and to make sure I wasn't.

BlueberriesAndCream Thu 02-May-19 21:44:20
Why is she prohibited from competing as a man?

Erm, sorry to state the bloody obvious - because she's not a man? Seriously? Are you so uneducated? This is NOT a trans issue - This is a woman issue who has has a medical condition whereby that condition means she has more testosterone than the norm.

I'm not clued up enough to go into the rights or wrongs of whether she - SHE - should be made to medicate herself to lower the testosterone but ffs! have a word with yourself

Namestheyareachangin

I've no idea what words they will end up using. They are trying very hard in that paragraph to use as many words as possible.

What they are saying is that someone with a Y chromosome who has benefited from testosterone has an advantage over someone without.

It is human biology, not legal status or gender identity, that ultimately determines which individuals possess the physical traits which give rise to that insuperable advantage and which do not.

I'm sure they will eventually come up with the correct wording to satisfy.

It's not that straightforward, Chicken. It's generally accepted that CS has male chromosomes (XY), and one of two disorders which means her body did not have a normal response to testosterone during embryonic development. So she was born with female (or possibly ambiguous) genitalia, and raised as a girl. Then had at least a partial response to testosterone during puberty, with all the physical advantages that confers.

Cel982 Thu 02-May-19 22:24:51
Caster can compete as a man if she wants to.

I'm really disgusted by the vile comments this woman, WOMAN, who has a medical condition through no fault of her own, is told to 'compete as a man'

I can only think those posters don't realise that she IS a woman albeit with a medical condition that means she has a higher testosterone level than the norm and that's what has been debated.

Names : do you know much of Semenya’s life story? Identified as female at birth yes, but raised as a boy, treated as a boy, wore boy’s clothes, friends call Semenya he, married to a woman who says she is heterosexual not a lesbian, and for whom Semenya paid a traditional dowry as men do.

You are very emotionally representing Semenya as this poor woman but that is not how Semenya has led their life. There is nothing female about Semenya. Male genetics, male hormones, male sex organs that failed to develop properly in utero so at birth (due to lack of ultrasound facilities this hadn’t been seen in utero) Semenya was identified wrongly as female. The only female thing about Semenya is their legal status.

And of course I am very sympathetic to Semenya and all others with intersex conditions. It is very sad and unfair for them. But it doesn’t make Semenya a woman and it doesn’t make it fair if Semenya uses male physical advantages to compete against women.

Caster is here being interviewed saying they grew up with boys, they weren't interested in hanging out with girls, how much football they played, and that girls are 'soft'.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvg50P4FwTk

I think in the long run there will have to be a category/categories for intersex (or trans) competitors, because at the moment the categories are: 'men' and 'not-men', which, in our non-binary age, seems a little dismissive of women's rights to fair competition.

In theory, that makes good sense; but in practice, would you have to have separate sub-categories based on levels of testosterone and other factors? Also, would it be fair to expect transmen and transwomen (both either pre or post medical/hormonal treatment) in the same class?

I fear it would end up like the Paralympics where, however talented and trained an individual is, the extremely small pool of potential competitors within the same band of (dis)ability automatically confers an unfair advantage on those participating (which I'm sure is the last thing any of them would choose).

Do you think she is entitled to any consideration or compensation, given that when she devoted her life to this sport no-one told her on what basis she would ultimately be required to justify the womanhood she had taken for granted all her life (as do we all who are born "appearing female")?

The “all her life” impression of woman hood would have lasted only until puberty though, when lack of periods and obvious virilisation would have or should have resulted in a medical review. There’s no doubt that her differences being investigated and recognised publicly and on the world stage are terrible, but this reflects her growing up in poverty and lack of access to medical care.

I think her subsequent behaviour shows a degree of entitlement. Caster knows her DSD XY status and her times drop considerably when her testosterone is lowered, proving that she responds to it. No woman can ever even approach those levels yet Caster has fought to run with XY levels of testosterone in the women’s races.

Every elite female athlete has their own story of sacrifice and their own dreams and ambitions.

Namestheyareachangin, your attitude to CS is sentimental. You sing a sad song for her but don't seem to have any.concern whatsoever for all the women athletes who missed out on medals and records because they were competing against a male.

I accept that CS was raised in the belief that she was female. However she is male, and she's known this for at least a decade. She's fought tooth and nail to retain her status because of her career and the money. There's nothing innocent about it.and the fact that her sex is a matter of public debate is down to her own decisions and actions.

This is not about an individual. This is about fairness and women's sports. I disagree with the ruling. I don't think it goes far enough. As CS has already had massive advantages because of going through male puberty I don't think she should be allowed to compete as a woman at all.

There is nothing female about Semenya. Male genetics, male hormones, male sex organs that failed to develop properly in utero so at birth (due to lack of ultrasound facilities this hadn’t been seen in utero) Semenya was identified wrongly as female. The only female thing about Semenya is their legal status.

There is everything 'female' about Semenya as she was born female and that's how she feels - kind of like her brain?? . Medically she is female albeit more testosterone (a medical condition) than 'the norm'.

Semenya IS a female with a medical condition that means she has higher levels of testosterone - SHE'S telling you she is woman. How about supporting that??

However she is male, and she's known this for at least a decade

SHE is not male - she's had the misfortune to be born with more testosterone than the norm.

Am out of it - the actual facts that are ignored and ignorance I'm disgusted with.

PS. - She's not MALE!

TBF nobody is telling CS she isn't supposed to present as a woman, just that a certain aspect of her biology is offering her an unfair advantage. Testosterone levels can be modified artificially so different to other advantages such as height etc.

She's also known for a long time so it's not as if she hasn't had the opportunity to find a different goal.

I also wonder if she would've even been an athlete if she'd have participated in male sporting events to begin with and wouldn't have been as successful.

Sorry she’s not a woman and never was.
Why would she be entitled to any compensation? Very few athletes can compete for lengthy periods of time. Just like any athlete who no longer qualifies. Do trained gymnasts get compensation if the grow taller and can no longer perform?

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll - I am not an intersex specialist, so I don't know how many categories would be needed for fairness to prevail. You mention the paralympics as if it was a bad thing (sorry if I've misinterpreted your tone or intention) - but I think it's good example. In paralympic swimming, for example, people with missing/deformed limbs can be in the same race as people with dwarfism, or neurological conditions, because the categories are based on overall impairment. So possibly, transitioned athletes might fit into a category defined for some level of DSD. Also, some form of DSD is thought to be as common as 1/100, there might be more competitors than you'd think...? I am not an expert as I've said, but I would imagine something along the lines of what I've described would be seen to be fairer by everyone.

SHE is not male - she's had the misfortune to be born with more testosterone than the norm.

Which came from undescended testes. Which only a male can have.

Chickenlickenloo. I'm not sure why you're struggling with this so much. I can understand you feeling very sorry for Caster. But I can't understand you just repeating she's not a male, when she actually is. It's not about her being masculine, it's about a genetic fact.

Something that has been obscured from the general public, I might add.

Chickenlickenloo Caster is MALE, whether you like it or not. Caster has abnormally high levels of testosterone due to their undescended testes. Women do not have testes.

XY is a male. Semenya is a male with a medical condition. Males should not compete against females in athletic competitions . Simple as that.

CS has a Y chromosome, Chickenlickenloo. That makes her male. Y is the sex-determining chromosome. It's the presence or absence of Y that determines whether an individual is male or female.

As for her being female in her brain, did you not read WorkingItOutAsIGo's post about CS’s life story?

Identified as female at birth yes, but raised as a boy, treated as a boy, wore boy’s clothes, friends call Semenya he, married to a woman who says she is heterosexual not a lesbian, and for whom Semenya paid a traditional dowry as men do.

Semenya will have known there was something up when she didn't go through female puberty. She has been fully aware for at least a decade.

Datun Fri 03-May-19 00:22:49
SHE is not male - she's had the misfortune to be born with more testosterone than the norm.

Which came from undescended testes. Which only a male can have.

*Chickenlickenloo. I'm not sure why you're struggling with this so much. I can understand you feeling very sorry for Caster. But I can't understand you just repeating she's not a male, when she actually is. It's not about her being masculine, it's about a genetic fact.

Something that has been obscured from the general public, I might add.*

Well we have to disagree there - and I absolutely don't feel sorry for her - I just absolutely despise that a muscular woman who has a medical condition should compete 'with the menz'.

And that anyone who disagrees with that is thick etc

Do you think she is entitled to any consideration or compensation, given that when she devoted her life to this sport no-one told her on what basis she would ultimately be required to justify the womanhood she had taken for granted all her life

It is sad. But sometimes there isn't anyone to blame. Who would compensate CS? Sport is segregated on biological sex for a reason. I completely understand that Caster may feel female and present as female (although possibly not) but a Y chromosome and testes, descended or not, make you male. Which in an average life affects things like bearing children, and in Caster's running, but no one is to blame.

Semenya is not a "muscular woman" , Semenya is in possession of a Y chromosome and is therefore a male.Jeez, what's so hard to understand about that?

Well we have to disagree there - and I absolutely don't feel sorry for her - I just absolutely despise that a muscular woman who has a medical condition should compete 'with the menz'.

Chickenlickenloo do you understand that what you, me and the general public have been lead to believe - that Caster is a genetic female with a disorder - is wrong?

That secrecy and duplicitous sports promotors have spun the issue?

Caster is a male with normal levels of male testosterone. And a disorder of sexual development that prevented their anatomy from forming properly.

Caster should not be competing with women at all.