To want to know it the IAAF are going to introduce upper levels of endogenous testosterone for male athletes?

[Namestheyareachangin]

Totally horrified by the ruling on Caster Semenya which essentially robs her off her career and penalises her for the strength and power that is her birthright as a human being.

The justification for this is that her testosterone levels put her beyond an acceptable upper limit to qualify to compete as a woman (while of course she remains prohibited from competing as a man).

So I want to know at what level of testosterone naturally present male athletes will be ruled out of the human race? Or is it only women who can be too strong,too fast, too good to be allowed to compete in their category?

They should have went further. But as a bare minimum the IAAF have made the right decision. Lets hope all sports do the same.

Caster can compete as a man if she wants to.

What is an absolute scandal is women being robbed of medals by unfair rules and competitors.

I think it's really flippant and dismissive to discuss this case as if Semenya is a transwoman trying to break into women's sports. She has (presuming she is XY with partial androgen insensitivity, which seems most likely) female genitalia, and has been raised as female since birth. Telling her she should now just 'be a man' is abhorrent. In terms of what the IAAF should have done - I really don't know, there's no easy answer to this, but this is not a transgender issue and trying to shoehorn it into that debate is both insensitive and counter-productive.

(And XYY does exist, btw, although is usually fairly inconsequential.)

To be honest if CS's chromosomes were known about from birth, there'd never have been question of her being regarded as a female - she'd have been legally and physically regarded as Male.

The court could well have said 'no you're a biological Male - compete with the men.' But they didn't, they came up with a reasonable compromise that means CS can still compete as a female athlete.

@Cel982 thank you, you have articulated my exact thoughts!

I think it's really flippant and dismissive to discuss this case as if Semenya is a transwoman trying to break into women's sports. She has (presuming she is XY with partial androgen insensitivity, which seems most likely) female genitalia, and has been raised as female since birth. Telling her she should now just 'be a man' is abhorrent.

The “compete as a man” responses are in response to the OP who said she is “prohibited” to do so. I don’t think this is true.

The other obvious option other than PAIS is 5 alpha reductase deficiency which has been mentioned a lot by people commentating on the case over the last few weeks.

I think it's really flippant and dismissive to discuss this case as if Semenya is a transwoman trying to break into women's sports

Nobody is doing that.

The OP claimed she was prohibited from competing as a man, she isn’t (though I doubt she wants to)

It isn’t fair for woman to have to race against XY athletes, that’s unfair and they have been robbed of medals.

The fault for that lies with corrupt officials and governing bodies. Please do read the linked threads.

Every Saturday I puff my around the park, I'm overtaken quite quickly (understatement) by men, lots of men and no spring chickens either in many cases, then a few minutes later the first female passed me, they are young, athletic etc and very few in number. Testosterone makes you faster, stronger etc on average so women's (formal) events need protection to ensure only those with X chromosomes compete against them

Very sad for her, but people with XY chromosomes have unfair biological advantages when competing against women.

Also unfair for transwomen to compete against women.

However hard this is for Caster, Caster is not a woman - women do not have Y chromosomes.

Women’s sport cannot be jeopardised by one individual. Women as a class have a right to compete fairly. They cannot do so if required to compete against those with an X chromosomes and all the physical advantages that entails.

There has already been enough damage done to women’s sports in the attempts to allow Caster to compete in women’s sports. I am sorry if this means the end of Caster’s career but that cannot be helped.

To answer the original question: I seem to remember there is/was an upper limit on testosterone for men too. Dennis Mitchell fell foul of it (and his excuse was not accepted)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Mitchell

I think in the long run there will have to be a category/categories for intersex (or trans) competitors, because at the moment the categories are: 'men' and 'not-men', which, in our non-binary age, seems a little dismissive of women's rights to fair competition.

Yes of course there is an upper limit for men - if they're significantly higher than that found naturally they're obviously doping. So yes OP there is.

Plus, as Sharron Davies points out, this ruling might now put a stop to unscrupulous countries hunting for more xy people with this particular DSD to compete as women.

Caster lives and presents as male. Describes women as soft and talking nonsense and doesn't appear to relate to them at all, is married to a heterosexual woman and has been aware of their Y-chromosome since at least 2009.
And presumably had a fair idea before, as they went through male puberty.

The idea that Caster is a genetic woman, with naturally occurring high testosterone, struggling to be taken seriously as a woman, and with an inner conflict over their identity, doesn't seem to be quite accurate.

Just to add, I don't think anyone is blaming caster. Rather more unscrupulous promoters whose lack of transparency over the testing has led to a lot of confusion.

Exactly @Cel98. Thank you for bringing a bit of humanity to this witch hunt. To tell CS she is a man when she has lived her whole life as a girl and a woman, giving no more thought to her chromosomes than any other woman would, and when she chose to devote her life to a sport which required her to be "a woman" with no caveats on how much of a woman and in what way, is fucking heartless and sacrificing her on the alter of anti-trans ideology. The inclusion of trans women in women's sport is a completely different kettle of fish. And anyhow, when suggestion is made that trans women should be allowed to compete in women's sport if they take drugs to keep their testosterone levels within the bounds set out as "normal", the same posters supporting the IAAF ruling that Caster should have to medically cripple herself to be allowed to reap the rewards of her lifetime of dedication to her sport and development of her abilities, foam and gnash their teeth and say that is not good enough because of their previous life as a man conferring an advantage that can't be undone with lowered testosterone at this point. So why would this be "enough" for Caster? Is it simply because you know she won't accept it and will have to slip into obscurity, or abandon her entire identity built over a lifetime in order to compete "as a man" (which you also know she'll never do)?

People who are happy to shit all over this woman's hopes and dreams in order to secure some contradictory points in their war against trans people really disappointed me. At least have the courage of your convictions and accept the IAAF decision is arbitrary with regard to the levels of testosterone Semenya would be required to artificially attain, and the events for which they have ruled. Basically this is presented as a "rule" which can be usefully applied across the board, when in fact it is a discriminatory ruling designed purely to keep this one specific person out of sport. It is persecution of a woman with a medical condition that is none of her doing.

It isn’t fair for woman to have to race against XY athletes, that’s unfair and they have been robbed of medals.

The fault for that lies with corrupt officials and governing bodies. Please do read the linked threads.

None of that was my point, RepealTheGRA. I'm not arguing for her to be allowed to compete. But the casual manner in which you're dismissing somebody with an intersex disorder, using the same language that we (justifiably) use when discussing trans athletes, just smacks of ignorance and a real lack of sensitivity of what it must be like to grow up with an incredibly difficult and complex medical condition.

@hotchox well what a lot of the posters on here seem to want are categories for "women" to a strict definition of XX and "not women" - everybody else piled in together whether or not they have any advantage. Which fundamentally is just about excluding trans people, which I think there is at least a discussion to be had about, but also intersex people, which is fucking persecution based on an innate characteristic.

The inclusion of transwomen in women’s sport has come about precisely because of changes to the rules to allow for athletes such as Caster.

If you are going to say I am anti-trans because I agree with this ruling then I am going to say you are a misogynist and clearly couldn’t give a shit about women’s sport, that you are prepared to sacrifice it for one athlete.

No woman has to consider her Y chromosome because no woman has Y chromosomes.

All interesex people have a sex. Caster is a male with a DSD. If this has been sorted at the start then Caster could have seen about competing in men’s sport. The relevant innate characteristic is that Y chromosome.

Have you read the linked threads Cel982? The one in FWR is particularly enlightening.

Below is a comprehensive thread.

With quite a few people shocked at today's ruling. Quite a few people under the impression that caster is genetically female. And quite a few people who are expert in DSDs.

Lots of conflicting opinions. But, crucially, there is a lot of extra information about the issue.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3511026-Caster-Semenya?msgid=86768897#86768897

Including the CAS ruling, summarised below.

"The Panel accepts the IAAF’s submission that reference to a person’s legal sex alone
may not always constitute a fair and effective means of making that determination. This
is because the reason for the separation between male and female categories in
competitive athletics is ultimately founded on biology rather than legal status. The
purpose of having separate categories is to protect a class of individuals who lack certain
insuperable performance advantages from having to compete against individuals who
possess those insuperable advantages. In this regard, the fact that a person is recognised
in law as a woman and identifies as a woman does not necessarily mean that they lack
those insuperable performance advantages associated with certain biological traits that
predominate in individuals who are generally (but not always) recognised in law as males
and self-identify as males. It is human biology, not legal status or gender identity, that
ultimately determines which individuals possess the physical traits which give rise to that
insuperable advantage and which do not.
19. Accordingly, the purpose of the male-female divide in competitive athletics is not to
protect athletes with a female legal sex from having to compete against athletes with a
male legal sex. Nor is it to protect athletes with a female gender identity from having to
compete against athletes with a male gender identity. Rather, it is to protect individuals
whose bodies have developed in a certain way following puberty from having to compete
against individuals who, by virtue of their bodies having developed in a different way
following puberty, possess certain physical traits that create such a significant
performance advantage that fair competition between the two groups is not possible. In
most cases, the former group comprises individuals with a female legal sex and a female
gender identity, while the latter group comprises individuals with a male legal sex and
male gender identity. However, this is not true of all cases. Natural human biology does
not map perfectly onto legal status and gender identity. The imperfect alignment between
nature, law and identity is what gives rise to the conundrum at the heart of this case."

I suggest the OP reads the thread in FWR.

@Namestheyareachangin: Well yeah, I am equally as annoyed by the idea of categories for 'women' and 'not-women' as I am at the current 'men' and 'not-men' set-up, neither is a fair solution. In an ideal world I'd be in favour a paralympic-style categorising of people who are non-binary (within whatever limits), but obviously there are lots of privacy and intrusion issues there, so I don't know if it's practical.

@WeepingWillowWeepingWino

When you say "at the beginning", do you mean when baby Caster's parents were told "congratulations, it's a little girl"? Or when the young Caster began training to compete regionally, then nationally, in the sport she loves? At what point should the person assigned a girl at birth by medical professionals, raised as a girl by living parents, seen as a girl all her life by everybody in her life and by herself, have been told she was actually a man? Because bloody right if that is the right and proper way to deal with the complex and sometimes heartbreakingly confusing intersex conditions, someone should have told her this before she ended up being pilloried in the media, publicly and shamingly examined for every aspect of her life and body, and eventually publicly punished and dehumanised for the way she was made. So should it be a legal requirement to chromosomally sex all babies are birth? Or do we just leave this minority to innocently build their lives then have those lives taken away from them at the point their uniqueness becomes inconvenient to other people?

Have you read the linked threads Cel982? The one in FWR is particularly enlightening.

I have, thanks, Repeal; there's lots of thoughtful stuff there, as well as a lot of misunderstandings about intersex disorders. I'm not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse - I'm not arguing against the ruling, just about the 'throw her under a bus' tone of some of the comments here. It's possible to agree with the IAAF without dismissing the lived experience of somebody who's had it tough in lots of ways, and been badly treated by those around her, so casually. She didn't choose this.

@Datun - the text of the ruling you quote strongly implies that the terminology of male and female or men and women has no place then in the division of athletes. Whatever the parameters they are applying to Caster, it is not a verdict on her femaleness; therefore it is factually inaccurate to use the shorthand of "female/women" to describe the category from which she is being excluded. What does the IAAF propose to amend the names of the categories which in the main compromise of women on the one hand and men on the other? Because if this is not to be based either on legal sex or gender identity, the terms "men" and "women" are no longer appropriate. Male and female would also be extremely contentious as Caster is legally female. So what will these categories be called instead? "testosterone level x-y mol" and "testosterone level a-b mol"?