To be sad and horrified that rape convictions have dropped to 1.7%

[darkriver19886]

I am utterly horrified. This article came up on my newsfeed and I am shocked that it has dropped so low and it's likely it will be dropped even further with the move to take victims phones.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/rape-victims-phones-police-investigation-disclosure-forms-cps-a8888376.html?fbclid=IwAR00s8kr5yRHXzqN1xQqeoL95A6u1VYidBaPV-T0RPAe8sclst-b6b5aiFk

we need to actually look at what will prevent rape and/or lead to more convictions

Absolutely... Education is essential on what constitutes consent, with men taking a leading role in the process. The lack of recognition of what constitutes consent is appalling.

This would be a good start, and you may increase rape convictions a few % by doing that - which would be great - but there would still be a huge number of “he said, she said” rapes that the current system can’t adequately resolve.

We need to do something more radical... I still think technology is probably the way forward in being able to record your vital stats in such a way as to be able to identify when and where hormonal and respiratory responses occurred that would be indicative of rape - if we could do that in the next few generation of Fitbit type devices we may have something that provides the proof that can be so elusive.

No, Oakenbeach - just No.

I do not want to be forced to wear a Fitbit or similar, permanently, and to surrender my smartphone to the police, just because I'm a woman.

Why can't the authorities demand that accused men be investigated in equal detail? Demand that accused men surrender their phones and all connections, and be investigated equally thoroughly?

Oakenbeach what do you mean? It is a fact that the standard is beyond all reasonable doubt not beyond all doubt. You jump from that to no jury. Are you thinking of a more investigative system like other countries (forget what it's called) rather than the adversarial system we have

Exactly... I’m agreeing you that it’s beyond all reasonable doubt, not beyond all doubt. And if juries are reckoned to be unable to apply that reliably in cases of rape, then we should seriously consider another route in obtaining justice.

OccasionalKite

There was a thread on here discussing the phone situation.

Some lawyers were saying the reports were misrepresented. That no one had to surrender their phone.

I think they also said the accused would have their phone seized. Also that a victim's phone could be interrogated and returned quickly.

I don't know if this is all correct but it is what people were saying.

Other than that I don't understand why you are saying that you shouldn't need to wear say a fitbit monitor but that men should be investigated equally when accused? Surely both sides have to give a statement which are then investigated. That's how the discrepancies will come to light and hopefully a conviction secured.

How do you see it working if only the accused is investigated? One poster on the thread I mentioned had their phone seized (as the victim) and it proved that the victim was with the accused at the time of the attack so in that instance the investigation of the witness supplied crucial evidence.

How do you see it working if only the accused is investigated?

I was a witness to an attempted murder. I wasn't investigated, the accused was. The victim wasn't either. Or is it only rape cases where the victim is treated as the accused?

It's nice that you are on so many cases defending men against the consequences of their actions. It would be lovely if you did the same for women.

Decomposing - I'm asking questions because I do not now.

You're attempting to give me your answers, based on... you don't know either, but you're paddling furiously!

Why can't the authorities demand that accused men be investigated in equal detail? Demand that accused men surrender their phones and all connections, and be investigated equally thoroughly?

Obviously the man would be required to do the same....

There’s a lot of understandable anger and frustration on this. Rapes are largely being committed with impunity and that’s sickening. Of course we can improve education and hope that improves matters but I want to see a step change that will go a long way to eliminating rape.

Now, either we can huff and puff and continue to get livid about this, and make all sorts of points that a woman must be believed when she makes an accusation, but not follow it through to the inevitable conclusion of it making trials redundant.... or claim that a man must prove ongoing consent, but recoil (understandably) when presented with what that would entail.... or we can think outside the box and do something radical.

I’m thinking about a chip or something that would just take bodily readings... an infringement on autonomy? Yes. Worth it if it stops rapists acting with impunity? Definitely imo. Should I have to do this? No! But I shouldn’t have to lock my front door but I do!

Or is it only rape cases where the victim is treated as the accused?

No one wants to treat a victim like the accused, but to convict in cases of rape, evidence is inevitably required.... I wish there was another way but I can’t think of one! Does it anger me that that’s the case? Absolutely! But if it’s needed for conviction then it’s a necessary evil. What’s the alternative?

MrsTerryPratchett

You were a witness to an attempted murder and at trial no one cross examined you?

OccasionalKite

Not trying to pretend that I know anything. Just explaining that there was a thread yesterday about the question you just asked. Search for it and you will be able to read it yourself if you don't want to believe me. You asked a question, I tried to answer.

Demanding that women use Fitbits and smartphones and similar technology so that they can just hand their personal devices and all of their very personal information and data to biased police and "justice" services?

Such a policy is the brainchild of institutional rapists, sex offenders, misogynists and authoritarians.

Surely, you cannot condone all this?

@OccasionalKite

I’m thinking of a very specific (as yet undeveloped i believe) piece of tech that just monitors hormonal and respiratory responses... nothing containing personal info.

Really, depriving women of their key tech and their lawful property, indefinitely, at a time when they are in greatest need of the support of that tech.

It's just another method for the authorities to threaten and silence women for reporting rapists and predatory men.

Oakenbeach: can you give me authoritative research studies and credible peer-led reviews on your (and I quote):

"piece of tech that just monitors hormonal and respiratory responses"

?

Does it work if either party has some variety of asthma, occasional disordered breathing, for example?

Oh there are some scummies on here I see.

And everyone knows WTF consent is. Don't be that fucking thick. My two rapists knew very well that I wasn't consenting. It was explicit. Spat out, kicked out, screamed out and cried out. They both knew exactly what they were doing.

Poor lads. Maybe I didn't make it clear enough.

Don't fucking delude yourselves that 'OMG there's young boys being accused of rape etc.'.

I'm late 30's.

You were a witness to an attempted murder and at trial no one cross examined you?

There is a difference between cross examination and being investigated as if you are the accused.

As for the utter asshole having to prove 'forced entry', while her pearls were robbed.............

How about having to prove forced entry to yourself? What evidence would you supply? A shattered chastity belt?

What if your daughter some day has to 'prove' to a court that some monster raped her? What indeed if YOU have to since you seem incapable of thinking outside of yourself

What then? "Oh, stop being silly, look, we couldn't prove he forced entry into your body, but sure, nothing was taken!"

Despicable way to think and post.

As the key witness in a rape is most times the victim, it's somewhat different to other crimes.

I didn't even go to court when I knew they had a solid case against him! I can't imagine anyone would go through it for the craic.

In the most recent rape trial I've heard covered, the witness i.e. the victim, spent 7 days being cross-examined.
Now she wasn't the accused!
She was the victim.

AuldJosey

You have no idea what happened in the burglary. Do you think being terrorised in your own home is a joke?

can you give me authoritative research studies and credible peer-led reviews

No, it’s an idea... it may not even be possible, but we need something - such as a tech solution - that provides the evidence of rape in the many cases where there is currently a lack of evidence. You can fulminate all you like, but that won’t reduce rapes... we need to do something genuinely radical if we are to make a real difference. I totally get that having to hand over smartphones is hugely problematic.

Make the offence of rape an either way offence - that'll help 'boost' the numbers, I reckon.

In the most recent rape trial I've heard covered, the witness i.e. the victim, spent 7 days being cross-examined. Now she wasn't the accused!
She was the victim.

It’s awful, but what are the alternatives..,. As I see they are either:

1. Believe the victim, rendering cross-examination and the trial process unnecessary. This would give the burden of proof to the man. The man would logically be guilty until proven innocent - turning on its head centuries of legal process. It also follows that if guilt is the default, the man should be convicted and sentenced first (otherwise we are allowing guilty rapists to be at large), and then seek to prove his innocence later if he believes he can. Given the extreme difficulty of proving such innocence in the cases where convictions seem impossible at present, it’s a reasonable assumption that “innocence” rates would likely be similar to the “conviction” rates at present. This may be the price to pay for increasing convictions, but those who advocate for men proving their innocence should at least own the logical consequences, or at least come up with an alternative way it would work, or

2. We don’t bother and allow rape to be committed with impunity, which is happening all too often

I don’t think 1 is workable or 2 is acceptable, so that’s why we need an alternative... My tech idea may not work but we need similar genuinely radical ideas that might actually work.

People can keep the moral high-ground and say they shouldn’t have to do anything as they’re not responsible, but I’d prefer to actually stops rapes and massively increase convictions where it occurs.

And everyone knows WTF consent is. Don't be that fucking thick.

In cases of violence like you and many others have experienced, then yes, but if I’m being fucking thick then so is the Rape Crisis Centre rapecrisis.org.uk/get-informed/about-sexual-violence/myths-vs-realities/