To be sad and horrified that rape convictions have dropped to 1.7%

[darkriver19886]

I am utterly horrified. This article came up on my newsfeed and I am shocked that it has dropped so low and it's likely it will be dropped even further with the move to take victims phones.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/rape-victims-phones-police-investigation-disclosure-forms-cps-a8888376.html?fbclid=IwAR00s8kr5yRHXzqN1xQqeoL95A6u1VYidBaPV-T0RPAe8sclst-b6b5aiFk

There is always a risk that an innocent person will be found guilty.

Usually from what I can see due to police fit ups eg Birmingham 6.

These cases don't say oh we need to throw it all any risk innocent person goes to prison is too awful.

Only with rape are we told this.

The constant men get raped too yes they do so do girls and boys.

However, in general, it's mainly women/ girls of childbearing age who are placed under suspicion/ likely top be lying / adding for it etc. Gay men and older boys, as well. Straight men, elderly women and young children are not seen this way.

The reasons for that should be obvious, I'd haven't, here on FWR. if not, maybe do some thinking...

You have said it is impossible to prove something with no witnesses.

So, in your view, rape with no associated extra violence/ a dead body etc. Is impossible to prove. And so in reality, it's not a crime.

That is the logical end point of your stance.

Good news is, CPS etc agree. Other thread says the prosecution rate of rapes reported to police is under 2%. You need not worry. The law is well on the side of rapists, so innocent men really do have little to fear. Unlike women and girls, but that's fair payoff in a civilised society, I am sure.

Decomposing

If you know any women

What this thread tells you

And also the stats

Is that some of them will have been raped
And it's very unlikely any will have reported
This includes work colleagues, friends etc.

And this new stuff means that
If any of the women you know are raped
Or the girls over about 13
They will talk to their close female friends
And be unlikely to report
This includes victims of stranger rape or rape with lots of violence

You say this is a reasonable price to pay for a just society.

We hear you, loud and clear.

MenuPlant

Where have I said that it is impossible to prove something without witnesses?

And how is it my view that rape isn't a real crime?

And yes, innocent people are wrongly convicted, even under our current system. Which is surely an argument for not making innocence even harder to prove?

You cannot convict someone of a crime without any evidence. I just don't see how anyone can believe this? Do you honestly believe all that is needed to secure a conviction should be 1 person making an allegation?

In short.

Justice is for men, and it is how men define it.

And that's the end of that.

I was reading a news report yesterday about the new intrusive mobile phone rule for women reporting rape. There were 300 comments and the majority (50/50 split of male and female) were basically "Great. This will stop all these 'alleged victims' making up false accusations about men". It made me feel physically sick and just highlights the disgusting attitudes towards women.

MenuPlant

You are throwing out a lot of allegations about what I apparently have said. Show me where I have actually said what you are accusing me of.

I have said that the process needs to change in order to prosecute more cases and to secure more convictions. Look at the public understanding of what constitutes rape, supporting victims to report and go to court, changing how witnesses are treated in court and in the lead up.

Change lots of things. But I don't agree with losing the presumption of innocence or changing the burden of proof. That isn't me saying any of the things that you are accusing me of.

And the fact that women were as vitriolic as the men proves we have so far to go to make society safe for women.

Wtf I didn't say that.

You have biases.

This latest one, women want men sent to prison on their say so, for rape.

Stop lying. What are you even doing? So many women on this thread sharing their personal stories of rape and no justice. And still you bang this drum and construct your straw men, seemingly uncaring or oblivious to your environment. No respect for the personal stories, just an absolute certainty that this thread is all about irrational women with no understanding of process, who want to do men down.

Why do you come here? You all have the same arguments.

The law is stacked against rape victims. Including underage ones. Your view of yourself as sole person to stand up for what's right is boring. We know your arguments and have heard them a1000 times. We know them, and the place they come from. We hear you. We know what you are saying. It's really very obvious and tedious.

Have a bit of respect maybe that rape victims who have been through this know a bitter more than when you got your house burgled for eg.

reread burglury post

'I accepted having to prove what was taken, have soco round to examine the scene, prove forced entry etc.'

concludes someone is on the wind up

If not, reread what you wrote there, your wording, on a thread about rape.

A woman's cunt, anus or mouth =/= a house

In case it needs spelling out

Jesus.

Re: burglary, if a (male) homeowner proved forced entry and was then told it looked like just a consensual house cleaning gone wrong, there'd be hell to pay.

Men don't put up with this new-speak bullshit.

@MissSueFlay your experience sounds similar to mine. We failed to reach a verdict. The jury was split between a couple of people who were straight up not guilty (and probably a little bit “she was drunk what did she expect”), a couple who were satisfied there was enough evidence that she didn’t or couldn’t have consented, and the majority who just didn’t feel the evidence was enough to convict.

It was so difficult, and we were very much pushed on being sure. And in fact had that argument of “without cctv/other witnesses how can we ever know” vs “with that logic how can we ever know anything”. I did not appreciate beforehand how complex, emotive and divisive it would be. And how sordid but also how commonplace their story was.

FWIW I totally think the bastard did it...

@MenuPlant
@AssainatedBeauty

Apart from filming the sex, I’m genuinely not sure how you could prove persistent enthusiastic consent. I’m not trying to be difficult but I genuinely can’t see how anyone could prove it otherwise.... Asking the defendant to describe how he knew the woman was consenting hardly works as men, especially rapists, are more than capable of lying!

One radical alternative is to say that men have had it their way for too long, and that a simple accusation of rape should be considered true and sufficient for a conviction .... In which case, a trial is entirely superfluous. There may be some miscarriages of justice, and that’s unfortunate, but it’s worth it to redress the balance. In other words, the number of women obtaining justice would offset the injustice that some men may experience.

Bench
Field
Whatevs

As per PP v dull heard all before.

Yes men must either prove the impossible or go to prison on word of woman.

That is exactly what is being said, very well done.

I have read before that with sex offences, it does morph from beyond all reasonable doubt to beyond any possible doubt whatsoever no matter how outlandish

YY, exactly. Whatever unlikely cock and bull story the defendant puts forward.

God women are just such unreasonable bitches aren't we, when you look clearly at this issue.

Prove the impossible or straight to jail.

Poor men.

Lucily at the mo the bar majority of men are in no danger of going to prison for rape when they rape someone. Phew!

1.7 % reported get convicted.
3% ish false similar to other crimes
Leaving what 95% did it no convictoon

That's of the ones that get reported which is a tiny % of attacks I forget what.

But women who discuss this get people coming on ooob you want to do away with trials send men to prison on say so

Misogynist drivel.

MenuPlant

You have made up endless claims about what I am supposed to have said that I actually haven't said and then you have the audacity to accuse me of putting words into your mouth or of having bias? You have to be joking.

Our laws in this country are all based on the same premise - presumed innocence. That applies to murder, rape, burglary, theft.

So yes. The experience of a victim of a traumatic, violent burglary does have some parallels (in the way that the police still require evidence of a crime having been committed).

They required evidence that what we said happened, actually happened.

I know an ex-Detective Sergeant, his view was pretty clear: If the woman had been drinking she had usually consented then changed her mind afterwards due to sobering up or having a boyfriend ...so cries rape. He said it was impossible to prove she hadn't consented even with forensic evidence. He said, she said!

The only rape he got a conviction on was a stranger rape that was a kidnap linked attack.

In short...not even the police bother to look past the "she consented but changed her mind/likes it rough..."-no chance of a conviction so they don't waste their time investigating and building a case.

Please note my opening sentence-I only said I knew him, I never said I like him or he's a friend...I made my thoughts on his policy quite clear!!

Is it actually true that raped women and girls are now required to surrender their mobile phones to the police - so, loss of a key piece of technology, for an indeterminate period - otherwise their rape report gets closed down immediately, no more questions asked?

Our laws in this country are all based on the same premise - presumed innocence. That applies to murder, rape, burglary, theft

And in the case of rape and sexual assault it's not fit for purpose. So instead of shrugging and saying, "whatevs, boys will be boys" we need to actually look at what will prevent rape and/or lead to more convictions. 95% of reported (which is a tiny proportion of rapes anyway) rapists going free is disgusting and needs to be changed.

And it isn't even he said/she said like some people would love to expound. Ched Evans admitted he hadn't even talked to the stumbling, drunk women. There was video. No suggestion of consent. The woman who recorded her rape, actual evidence of lack of consent. The Saudi millionaire who claimed his semen found inside the non-consenting woman was there because he fell over on her penis first. All of these men were acquitted under the current system. It's fucking disgusting. There isn't a semblance of 'reasonable' doubt.

MenuPlant

Well, what are your solutions?

How does a man prove consistent enthusiastic consent if the sex isn’t videoed?

In the absence of compelling forensic evidence
or independent corroboration, how can rape convictions be increased other than by simply believing the woman?

Spot on and hear hear, MrsTerryPratchett.